This is a question for fellow writers of spiritual matters, but anyone is free to comment below.
I have noticed a trend – and it is nothing earth shattering – in this world of spiritual teaching:
A man or woman may come to a realization, perhaps only a realization on a superficial level, or perhaps something deeper, then they begin to ‘teach’ it. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with this. But it makes me wonder if enlightenment, the way that term is used by the masses, is nothing more than conformity to one’s ideals of enlightenment.
I am not against anything they are doing, and I cannot sit here and say I ‘know them’ in any intimate way. But is this all we have to look forward to? We go to listen to someone speak on a podium, we may have or may not have a realization, then we go and speak on a podium.
My big question is, In what way is this helpful to humanity?
Don’t take it as, “I am expecting there to be something or nothing there,” because that is not it. I really want to know.
How do you see this?
101 Comments
Thanks in advance to all the wonderful people that will look into this question seriously…
There are as many experiences of the path as there are people. Putting what you’ve encountered on your own path may help some folks to have more faith in what they are going through on theirs, freeing them from what they *believe* they should be going through.
Thank you Jody,
It is a strange sort of ‘permission’ A seeker may look to another to see if it is OK to go through whatever the seeker is going through. One must be diligent in order to see it for what it is, and not make another’s experience into a thing to be expected for oneself. But this is the job of every human being in all matters.
So often it becomes another search for security, another game to be played, but it is not necessarily the fault of any particular teaching or guru. The more someone wants, the easier it is to fool them, and we have seen this play out so destructively in all areas of human existence.
Perhaps some on the spiritual paths (or any path) simply do not know that they do not know.
Hey Takuin,
What a cool question, and I like that you noticed that tendency.
Before I address your question of how it’s helpful to humanity, I want to look into the reason why I do the whole teaching thing. There’s so many reasons… there’s ego reasons like to feel looked up to, to derive a sense of self-worth by appearing wise to others, and so on, but there’s more to it than that.
I’m gonna look at my own experience thus far in this lifetime.
I’ve been a teacher since I was a little kid. Some people are healers. Some are musicians. My energy: teacher. In virtually every group I’ve been with, without fail I wind up teaching something, organizing events, leading people, or in some way helping out on an official level. Even when I make a point NOT to do so and just sit back to enjoy the show, people will ask me to help run the show, to lead discussions, or whatever the case may be. It’s almost comical really, because I am drawn to the teacher role whether I deliberately try to be or not. It’s just how the energy of this life seems to express itself.
One of the best ways for me to lock in everything that I learn or realize is to put it into words and share it with others. It’s not so much, “this is the way things are and here is what you need to know” in some righteous and snobby way. It’s more, “here is what I have come to realize through my own direct experience. I may only be seeing a partial view of the big picture, and I very well may see something new five minutes from now which can change or completely void what I’m saying now, but right now, this is what’s true for me.”
and for whatever reason, people find these sharings incredibly valuable. I can’t tell you how many times people have asked me to write a book or to otherwise write in one way or another. It’s almost ridiculous. One of my gifts, it seems, is the ability to take ideas and teachings and put them in a way that people can easily understand and absorb. I was never a star writer in english or anything, but when it comes to spirituality or anything else that I have a natural passion for, I can just play. It just naturally flows from within.
I feel like this benefits humanity because this is the best way I can be in service to the whole. This is the best way I can honor myself. This is the way life wants to express itself through this body/mind. This is the way that I am most deeply fulfilled and this feels like my purpose for being alive, for living at this exact point in human history. Every part of my life feels like it’s supporting this teaching.
To what extent this benefits humanity and the myriad of ways that my actions impact All That Is, that much I don’t know, and I don’t really think I need to know. What I do know is that this is right.
As long as I maintain my integrity and don’t try to make myself look like something I’m not, as long as I don’t try to put on a facade and pretend I am “more enlightened” than I really am or whatever, it’s all good. (especially going through so many non-abiding awakenings) It’s about being truly authentic as to who I am, and to accept my life and my purpose in being alive. My own level of authenticity and self-acceptance also seems to benefit those who see me in that they can see that it’s okay for THEM to accept themselves the way they are, and it’s okay for them to be who they truly know themselves to be at their core.
So it just comes down to me being myself.. in a nutshell.
and by “me,” I mean the Total me, including both you AND me
(Yes I know I used the words me and I in this comment. Don’t call the Advaita police on me!) lol
Thanks for sharing that Ariel. I would describe it differently but I’m much the same. Both parents were teachers. It’s gotten me into trouble more than once. (laughs) But understanding has been key on my journey and writing has been part of the process, although i only more recently began sharing it. I flunked English (laughs)
Heard a talk last weekend by Eckhart Tolle’s publisher. She spoke of the importance of integrity and a pure intention that is of service.
We do what we can and we do what we are. Nothing else is possible. (laughs)
Thank you Ariel,
After reading this sentence I took some time to sit with it as an inquiry for Takuin. Here is what came up:
I cannot say that I am a teacher. Others may say it, and possibly someone somewhere believes it to be so, but I do not define it in this way. Whether I think it or not is rather insignificant anyway, but I never felt I have a message or that I can light someone else’s candle.
You’ve known yourself to be a teacher for a very long time. I try to look back and it is difficult, because I can never be sure of what I am seeing in the past. All that comes, the only ‘answer’ arising is, Curiosity. That and Nothing-ness. Alone-ness. Looking back, it seems I always wanted to know something, but I could not trust others to give it to me. I do not know why that was the case. I cannot see myself thinking it should be this way or that way or anything like that.
Of course, like everyone else, there are things I am good at doing. Physical skills, certain knowledge and so on. But now, after almost three years post ‘awakening’ (or whatever silly word one might use), there are no more definitions; no sense of I am This or I am That. It is difficult to even remember what happened yesterday. And in two days, whatever memory remained will most likely be completely gone.
I think this ’state’ (ugh…that word!) scares people. There is no security here, and if this is seen, even in a subtle, intellectual way, it is almost too much to ask of someone to try putting themselves through it. But beyond the self’s need for security, is a safety greater than their dreams of the thing.
In no security lies the greatest security.
That is wonderful, and very important.
I started this site to see if their was a way to talk about liberation without artifice, nebulous language, or just plain silliness. Not that I assumed there must be a way, but I wanted find out if it were possible. And now, after all this time I can safely answer: I Don’t Know.
It has been mentioned before, and I think it is a fair assessment, that this site lacks…how should I say?…warmness? Sympathy? I won’t defend anything as I can see how one might view it as such. I think it is because there is very little in the way of ‘experience’ here. I don’t really talk about ‘myself’ and I do not tell many stories of my life or what has happened to me.
You all may disagree with me, and I am interested to know what you all have to say about this, but I see no significance to experience. It is very significant to the self, of course. But beyond that, what else is there? I am not talking about the acquisition of knowledge, nor am I speaking about memory by the way; I mean the events, as experience, we save up, use as bricks, use as mortar, to further solidify our identity as ‘real’. We tend to use it to justify OUR reality; “I was there during that event, and it means this to me, and I know it is real because I can feel it!” Or perhaps it is just an undigested bit of potato from last night’s dinner?
I am not saying there is anything wrong with what one believes experience to be, or its usefulness, its significance or whatever. But I never really injected it into Takuin.com for a specific reason; I never wanted another to think of Takuin’s ‘experience’ as a significant factor to awakening, because as I sit here now, I can see no connection between things I may have done, and whatever may have happened to ‘me’.
Perhaps experience first arose because we are afraid of losing what we have encountered? We see that first sunset – you know the one right? – and it blows our mind so completely that we know it can never happen again in the same way. So we do our best to make it personal, to hold on, to save it for later when we are back in the office dealing with our asshole of a boss, or whatever it is.
So it is not to deny anyone else their experiences, but I always question my own mind. The original question was, Is there an effective way to speak on this subject? But now the question might be, Is it effective to use experience as a tool for deeper communication? It may turn out to be true.
And if you did not do it, resisted the urge, then it would certainly be damaging for the whole. The world does not need another human denying their natural expression.
Don’t worry about that…I think we all find those people a bit irksome at times. (That may be putting it extremely lightly for some of us.)
This business of sharing experiences is interesting. People relate much more to that but they also tend to latch on to it more easily. Keeping it a little more impersonal often keeps it closer to what is being communicated.
Warmth and sympathy are values of expression rather than what is core. However, some do use them as part of the process as they can smooth the way.
In a way it’s being honest to your process. Some will speak more to the heart, some to the head, some to the senses. Different people relate differently and use different styles of ladder to ‘cross the void’.
I would not say there is a lack here. It just is what it is. And there is a deep value to honesty.
For myself, I still find some value to experience as a way to offer examples. For people to relate to it. And you have brought such non-personal examples up periodically. I have considered if there should be more experiential examples. Sometimes, people assume I am speaking theoretically.
But there’s a difference between using experiential examples and using ones own experiences. There can be a trap in that. And how does being a space cowboy contribute to wisdom?
Oh yeah, one thing that I’ve noticed in my discussions is how helpful it can be to see other people going through similar things. It helps confirm that no, I’m not going crazy and no, nothing’s actually going wrong! Lots of people have commented how tremendous of a relief it is to hear about the experiences of others.
It’s almost like a spiritual support system.
Are you asking about the realization or the teaching of it, or the teaching of an incomplete realization? I always thought that the higher one gets the more it benefits humankind, whether or not one teaches it. So it doesn’t really matter if one teaches or not, but having a realization will benefit everyone. And we should do whatever we can to get it. Some benefit from listening to someone on a podium, I guess.
Albert,
I am speaking more of ‘copying’ (for lack of a better word) the actions of a teacher. The idea that, ‘This is what enlightened people do,’ and so on.
But I’ll get more into this as more comments come in. I’ll probably give it until tomorrow…
We can, of course, look at it in those terms. But there is always more of yourself to give to others. No matter how high a level someone is or claims to be, there will always be a child dying of hunger and dehydration somewhere in this world. At least in our lifetime, it seems.
If someone says they are searching for enlightenment to help others, it is a silly statement. You do not need to be enlightened to help another human being. Feed someone. Teach them how to read, or how to question. Help your friend or a stranger into an alcohol rehabilitation program. Fly to another part of the world and build a school. Or walk a few blocks from your house and build a school.
Sometimes it is better to take our asses off the cushion instead of sitting there all day.
And please keep in mind, everyone, I am only asking this because I am curious. I am very interested in how you all see this.
Yeah, the whole notion of “this is what enlightened people do” or “this is how enlightened people act”… I’ve tried that, but it all seems to be a violation of who I know myself to be. It’s yet another concept to try to box myself into.
Instead of trying to “do what enlightened people do” (whatever the heck that is), it seems more beneficial to simply just be true to who you are and let the chips fall where they may.
Though not all enlightened people teach. I have no idea what the ratio is, but I’m sure a great many of them simply lead very ordinary lives without making a big deal about it.
That is certainly true, although I have no idea on the numbers either.
To go into it further, just ask Tom Stine about enlightenment and one’s choice of shirt. He’ll tell you a great story.
Right Tom?
In my own circles, the % who teach is small. Some do a little support or one on one. A few may become teachers although they already have been (laughs)
Ah, Takuin, you are referring to our little discussion about a year ago concerning Eckhart Tolle! I had forgotten about that. Okay, here is the story Takuin wants me to tell:
I wrote a little post about Eckhart Tolle’s appearances on Oprah.com last year. A reader left a comment that he was fairly certain that Eckhart was NOT enlightened because….. ready?…. he was wearing an expensive silk shirt during Oprah’s webcast. Yep, I kid you not. Enlightenment boils down to our choice of clothing. I suppose had Eckhart been dressed like Ramana or Gandhi (loincloth and bare skin), he would have been immediately declared enlightened! And I guess I’m doomed since I like to shop at Banana Republic.
To be fair, the commenter had some intriguing reasons for why the silk shirt was proof of lack of enlightenment, but nonetheless, you can imagine that I disagreed a touch. Whatever enlightenment is, I think it safe to say that Eckhart has a bit of it going on. Here is the post I wrote if you care to read the comments:
Thank You Eckhart Tolle and Oprah Winfrey
Hey, Takuin, I think I see another question or two for your peers:
1. What the hell is enlightenment?
2. Who are we willing to name as worthy of the mantle “enlightened?” Does Eckhart Tolle qualify?
I’ll give a preview of my answers to both questions: whatever enlightenment is or isn’t, it most likely isn’t a label that should be attributed to individual apparent human beings, almost like a job title. I would never say “Eckhart Tolle is enlightened,” I doubt I would even say, “Ekchart Tolle knows enlightenment,” but I might be willing to say “Enlightenment knows itself through Eckhart Tolle.”
I may not even be willing to say that last one, but it comes closer!
Tom,
I’ll keep those questions in mind. I may do this at regular intervals, perhaps once per month.
And thanks for the link…I am sure others will find it very interesting indeed…
Yes Tom, you are doomed. The truly enlightened buy their shirts at Tommy Bahama, and they are indeed silk.
But why all the fuss about who is enlightened, to what degree they are enlightened, and so forth? The words you need to hear, if any such words actually exist, may come from the most unlikely source. I often hear myself saying the words I need to hear for instance. And I should know by now that I am not to be trusted.
If it is a matter of people being deceived by the unscrupulous or misinformed, of what concern is this? I’m finding it difficult to understand why anyone feels that anyone else, much less humanity, needs to be helped or saved.
That may very well be true. But if you are ‘not to be trusted,’ as you put it, do not trust this, either.
Hi All
How do you know? How can you know unless their particular expression resonates with yours?
Interesting question. Most people end up with various concepts and expectations around subjects like “enlightenment”. One of those is the idea that the enlightened teach. That there’s some obligation or something. But as Albert observes, only a few have that calling. That is the funny thing – your bus driver or shoe salesman may be awake
And of course, one can be reminded of saints who smoked like a chimney, lived like slobs, etc. Part of the process is accepting our humanity – those parts of being this human that may not fall away…
I have noticed that some experiences can come with a knowing that has a quality of needing to be expressed. Needing to be as conscious as possible. This has to be approached with care, however, as an unintegrated or spiritualized ego driven expression can have unintended consequences. (laughs) It’s easy to forget that not everyone shares your vision.
As Jody observes, an open sharing of the journey can offer much benefit. But it can also be lost in stories about what it means or what state it is. When its spoken from a platform “I am wise” or some such, there can be a mistake. I know 2 teachers who wrote a book, then realized it was too much mind. Adyashanti was one – most of his published stuff is snippets from spoken word – the open flowing of Self, rather than written constructs.
There are far too many teachers saying “this is it” when it’s not really. We could say this is a disservice, but it is also a learning for everyone. Discernment is a valuable lesson on the path.
There is also the question of balance. Some understanding of the journey is useful so we understand what is arising. Also, so one does not get stuck in ideas like “this is it” or some goal has been reached. It’s a bit sad to see someone awake and loose the seeker, thinking they are done and missing the profound depth of it. Yet too much analysis can get one caught in concepts that are not that.
I would say there is not one ideal balance point as some have a much stronger need to understand than others. (speaking from experience (laughs))
One can also see a perfection in how the flower unfolds, or the story of someones awakening – however they/we may seem to stumble or put both feet in…
So many of us have forgot we have forgotten. Haha…
That may be the ‘ideal’ form of transmission. There is an intimacy in that moment of speaking. Something far different from writing. Not that one is necessarily ‘better’ than another as they both have their own beauty and craft. But there is a different energy in operation during speaking. Writing is fairly easy in that one can take some time to craft a sentence, build thoughts, and so on. But speaking is immediate.
I have focused on speaking over the last 6 or so months. On skype mostly, and the rest through various chat applications. I have noticed something interesting…Usually, by the end of a conversation, my head is on fire. Absolutely burning up. I don’t know why this is. This never happens during the act of writing, even if the subject matter is identical.
I can usually feel this transition when it occurs. This may be a result of what others call ‘flow’. When it happens, it is as if there is a steady hummmmmm. But I do not know why it affects my head in this way. No pain; just heat.
Akiko sometimes tells me I have an inhuman body temperature. Haha…
And as much as we hate to see it, there is really nothing we can do for them. We can talk, listen, and so on. But whatever we do may in turn feed the very analyzer in operation.
Sometimes there is no scalpel in the world sharp enough to cut.
There’s a whole different definition of being ‘on fire’.
Some may suggest this is kundalini but it sounds more specific. A buildup of shakti that is very strong, clearing the nadi’s and thus causing the heat. A kind of roasting? Flow, but with clearing. I’ve not had it like that but in other areas of the body.
Speaking has a quality of transmission that is more direct (or can be).
I guess another question to think on -who’s channels are being cleared? Is this Takuin clearing his head? (laughs) Or is it clearing the purusha, some more cosmic value? A group clearing? Worth looking at.
Hi Taukin,
I absolutely love this question for this subject is something that has been on my mind a lot lately.
True teachers never desire to be teachers. Meaning that I think true teachers are called to share what they have learned. They do not try to arrange a lecture hall or get some type of book deal. Those experiences come to them because that is what is meant to happen.
Many people reach a realization and want to share it with others due to their ego. I have seen it throughout my whole life. Someone has a moment of clarity and the next thing I know they want to market it. True spiritual awareness just simply is and does what it feels compelled to do regardless if there is any attention or fame.
Never in a million years thought I would have a blog. I am content in my simple life but the opportunity came and it felt right. Even now when someone leaves a comment on my site and calls me a teacher, I get uncomfortable because I am so much a student in my heart. Each day is an opportunity to master what I have been so fortunate to know and each day brings new insights. The learning never stops as far as I am concerned.
I think the best way to “Teach” is to just simply be and whatever is meant to happen as a result of being, will happen. You cannot cheat the Universe or yourself for that matter.
One more thing, I think people want a straight cut formula to being “enlightened” (whatever that means) and there is no such thing in my mind. Each person and each journey is unique. We all realize the same things but how we learn those concepts varies.
If anything above does not make any sense, please let me know. My body has a slight fever and a sore throat so I have no idea if my brain and my typing are in sync.
I look forward to see how this discussion develops!
Don’t worry Nadia, you could not have been more clear.
It is a shame they never question what goes on within them. Perhaps they do question, but only with the intention of getting something out of it. That movement of the self wants so badly, and it becomes very easy to fool them. Then as that movement continues, they continually fool themselves. Then there is the matter of ‘Knowing I am right,’ and so on.
It is hard to find a pin pointy enough to pop that balloon.
This is closer to what I spoke of in the question of the article. There is a need for the searcher to put it into a form that can easily be followed. A system or diagram or whatever. They imagine the state they want, then run off searching for the state they imagined, which has nothing to do with the ‘reality’ of the thing.
But I suppose there is very little we can do about that. No matter how many times we say “It is all within you,” someone will run off looking for the within you.
It is hard to find a pin pointy enough to pop that balloon.
But it comes in some form at some point. And boy can it pop…
Good question.
I don’t know ‘what enlightened people do’ – I do think that generally I end up teaching wherever I am. I tried it in a school though, and that didn’t work.
I don’t think all enlightened people teach, in fact, I don’t know what enlightenment is… But I do know that for me, sharing my insights is just part of who I am. For other people, like Ariel said, it may be healing, it may be silently being present and inspiring wisdom.
I don’t think it benefits humanity if everyone turns into a teacher in the lecture type way. I do think it benefits humanity if people share their insights without the pressure of having to imitate.
Thank you Katinka…good to see you again.
The pressure to imitate is immense for most, but I am not even sure it is necessarily a conscious thought for them. Like living in a town as a child and you think that town is the entire world…until you hear about the next town…then the next, and the next, and so on. It seems to grow larger, but it is still subject to the limitation of the perceive-er. But that is the world they know and it determines how they should live their life. If that is the right way to say it.
That sounds like an interesting story. Would you mind getting into that a bit? I would like to know what went on that made it difficult or unpalatable.
I love the questions, Takuin, and the subject, so I thought I would leave a few responses. These are in no particular order:
1. In response to your main question: “In what way is this helpful to humanity?” I think I’ll start with the most obvious response: I don’t know. None of us do. Part of the beauty of this Life we are is that so much is a mystery. As long as we are open to what is coming through us, and we are even remotely honest with ourselves about where we are, then Life will just have its way, and then we get to watch it unfold.
2. Another immediate response I get to your question is: “Who cares?” I mean that literally and in its more “advaita” sense. Why does the question even arise for you? Do our actions need to benefit humanity? I don’t really know if they do. Although, I have to add, that the more we “open” to Life, the more our actions DO seem to benefit humanity, or at least they tend to move in that direction. But that is an observation, not a statement of necessity. We don’t NEED to benefit humanity. But it sure seems that we do.
3. I suspect that as many have remarked, most people do not enter the role of teacher as they awaken to the truth. That is my experience at least. There may be an inclination to share, but not to truly teach as a “profession.” Look at the people Adyashanti has asked to teach. Most of them only do it part time. They have other functions in life, like therapists and, as in the case of my friend Larry Melton, scientists. Funky, huh?
4. I have to say that way too many people go into the spiritual teaching gig than seems warranted. That’s at least is how it SEEMS. Maybe it is just the right number. Actually, I guess that is true… the number is just right else…. there would be fewer. That said, some of these teachers are such ego maniacs as to not even be funny. What a delicious contradiction, eh? A teacher of “enlightenment” who is so obviously stuck in the muck of his own ego! Life is TOO FUNNY!!!!! Maybe that’s the point, to make us laugh uproariously? Or to cry profusely?
5. As has been observed by Ariel and Davidya, some of us just can’t help but teach. My experience mirrors theirs: I can’t avoid teaching. It just happens. People are always asking me questions as if I KNOW something they don’t. Maybe I do. Doubt it. But nonetheless, I answer, and they go away satisfied. LOL See, life is funny. But yes, some of us were just born this way, like a genetic condition. Or more likely childhood conditioning. So we just do what we are meant to do, and we do our utmost to clean out our own crapola so that we are hopefully as clear an instrument as possible. But teach we must.
6. Interesting to me that you would ask this question now, as I’ve felt very much led in recent months to “get busy” as it were and move forward in a big way with the whole spiritual teaching gig. So, I guess the question just became more “personal” in a sense: In what way will Tom Stine be helpful to humanity?
No idea how to answer that one. I guess I’ll find out!
7. It has become clearer to me that quite likely the most practical thing a person can do is pursue enlightenment. It sure seems to be of great benefit to an individual human organism to have some level of realization occur. While that is not always the case, it seems to beat the hell out of every other “self-improvement” process out there. I know, “self” improvement is the last thing that one can say about awakening, but there you go: the apparent individual often as not has a corresponding improvement in “his” life as he realizes more and more that there is no self. LOL My God, Life has one hell of a sense of humor, huh? But I’ll stick by my basic assertion: the pursuit of enlightenment is the most practical thing you can do. (Contradictions in that assertion conceded.)
8. As someone wiser than me once observed: there is a teacher for everyone at every stage of the journey. Even the most seemingly screwed-up individual can serve as a great teacher for someone. I’m reminded of someone that I met at a Sedona Method retreat who, when I met him, seemed like a “train wreck” of a person. After seeing them at a few retreats, I remarked up him to one of my friends. My friend’s response: “you think he is a train wreck now, you should have seen him a few years ago!” Whoa. But lo and behold, as I let go of my judgments about this person, and got to know him a bit, I discovered that he was a very successful coach who helps a lot of people, all the while still having the outer appearance of “train wreck.” His clients love him and swear by him. Who’d a thunk it? So… while I can’t say with certainty, it appears that humanity benefits from even the worst of the lot in the teaching/coaching/self-help movement.
I’m gonna get myself in trouble with this next comment, but you ever notice what a great impact Osho had on people? Drug addiction and Rolls Royces not withstanding. 
9. My last point: I am very clear that there is no answer to the question “What’s the point of all this?” Nor do I see any purpose when I look for one to anything that goes on, including all this spiritual teaching stuff. And yet, there is an appearance of a purpose, and that appearance, in my eyes, seems to be: to see more clearly. If there is any benefit, then, to humanity, it is the gradual opening of its collective and individual eyes. That would be the appearance of a purpose for all this teaching that goes on. People become clearer and clearer on what is real, what is true.
Thanks for the great question and the wonderful responses.
Tom, Osho.. lol…
I really like point 8. It’s not about needing to be the ultimate superguru, but just embracing where you are.
By analogy, we could say you don’t have to be teaching advanced mathematics to Ph.D. students in a university to be “there.” Even teachers of simple arithmetic are necessary and equally valuable within the big picture. Every level, if levels really even exist in the spiritual game, is a necessary and integral part of the whole.
Isn’t that the truth? We can see progress on a physical scale, of course. In impoverished areas we can look at the number of houses with clean water, electricity, towns with newly built schools, libraries, and hospitals, and so on. Those things are easy to measure because it brings something of value and (mostly) biological security to human beings. And although many human beings will not work toward those ends, we can all agree on the value it brings to others.
But beyond the physical measures, there is absolutely no way of knowing. Perhaps the critic knows?
Why would it not? A better question might be, “How might our actions benefit humanity?”
Do our actions need to? That is simple for you to answer…just look out into the world, as it is, and tell me. I am not saying anything ‘needs’ to be done. What you find is what you find. But remember, you also have a child to consider. Are you ready to set him free into this world we have created?
If something needs to be done, you’ll do it. It is certainly not about waving flags or signs of protest. But if that wind comes calling to you, whatever it is, you will not be able to resist.
In the end, it is not for me to say.
That is more fascinating to me than all the others stepping up to the podium. When one continues to work, or perhaps starts new work, they might be able to bring some new…dimension in the thing.
There certainly seems to be an uncommon clarity that goes along with one’s realization. I can only imagine the beauty it brings to their work.
That is what I am talking about here. You will find out what will happen. But something will happen because you are interested, curious, and ready to go. I know you will be helpful in that capacity, but I cannot say how. I’ll find out after you find out I guess. Just don’t keep it a secret for too long, my friend.
And ‘perfect’ actions will spring from that clarity. It is very true.
Your comment about clarity brought to work was interesting, Takuin. I have seen that for some people. For myself, the clarity was more of how pointless it was. (laughs) How caught people are by their resistances. Perhaps this arises from unsuitable work made clear. It has been interesting to explore with the loss of that which wants to fix it or make it different.
I guess this is the laboratory of the world but it seems someone left a lot of land mines around…
As long as you teach, you are learning…
Yes, Aline, as long as you truly teach, not rote recital of the past. In fact, the teacher seems to gain more from the queries than the student.
Hope springs eternal…
Tom Speaks! Nice to hear your “voice” again. Twitter may offer little Koans, but it’s not the same…
It is interesting to consider. I used to have a sort of love-hate thing with the teaching bit. It drew out great insights, got me in trouble, ruined a career (not by the book), and made some great friends. In many ways, I don’t consider what I do “teaching” but more sharing the journey. But it is interesting to see how people are “called”. One voice who has profound effects on those around them, but is slow to be heard. Another steps from drama, through waking and invited into satsangs in a few months. Some seem so unlikely.
Recently, It has become clear how much more direct and potent the voice can be in connecting than the written word. But still, I find great value in that process and some benefit by it.
A fellow I got to know socially was very into numerology. When you were introduced, by your name he immediately classified you. I was ‘reliable but lacked insight’. At a film and discussion later, I made some observation and he gave me a strange look and said I was from another planet. (laughs) I had no idea why he responded like this until it became clear I did not fit his idea of my name. He took to calling me “Doc” after that.
I remember this as it reminds me how uniquely people experience the world and the filters they’ll bring to whatever arises. The range of voices is necessary for the range of ears. And we all have ego tricks to see through that someone may help exemplify.
It’s one of the risks of teaching that one gets to be a more public example of outgrowing things. Don’t think I’ve made a fool of myself too often. Although the play is not yet over… (laughs)
I still roll my eyes when I see someone I thought had sense endorsing one of the larger charismatics out there. But it makes the world a great classroom.
Does it benefit humanity? What is humanity? A concept of a bunch of humans? Do we work in any way as a whole? Wholeness is not really in humanity but that which underlies all things. Humans and otherwise.
To me, the pursuit of, um.. what would I call this? Greater wholeness??? Hmm – this is the wrong way of putting it. To me, the attention to unfolding of awareness is why we’re here so it is both imminently practical and very productive. Everything else goes the way of all things.
Yes, it becomes apparent that while much falls away, there are things that don’t appear to be, that are inherent in living a life as a human. Traits, tendencies, gifts – that teaching thing for example. It has morphed several times. The original motivators are gone but the process continues.
It is interesting. I continue to see a purpose to what arises. Perhaps in retrospect. But everything that occurs is intended, so has an intendor. But even if there is a strong sense of what is becoming, it remains a surprise. Even if I am that which intends, what arises arises from the whole that is larger than is seen, so it’s flowering remains a mystery.
The only “point” Ive noticed is the point we call a me, that focus of attention expressing through an apparent human. And even that point is just a focus of infinity so can not really be called a point in itself. More just another intention.
(laughs) Curious what comes out sometimes…
Doc? Really? Well you are lucky. Usually when I get into things others cannot accept, they call me a name that is CLOSE to Doc, but not quite. Haha…
But I suppose in all of this, the only way things happen is they happen. It doesn’t mean we can’t make a plan to do something, and it doesn’t mean we can’t feed the world because “Starvation is WHAT IS,” or some other nonsense.
I am sure you’ve seen it before Davidya; someone using ‘All Things’ kind of lingo as an excuse for laziness. But we cannot go into the operation of their minds to see that laziness, even if the operating laziness is within us as well.
I suppose the only real laboratory is the one we work within everyday.
What you’ve all done so far is quite lovely. You’re all a very wise bunch, and I am thankful to know all of you. It would be nice to start new dialogues, such as these, perhaps once per month.
Anyway, let us see what else comes up in further exploration…
Follow the one who speaks and you ‘ll learn to speak… Follow the one who walks and you’ll know to walk…
We have to take care with the words we use here. Follow in what sense? To obey?
In that sense – using the word follow to mean obey – we have this:
Follow the one who speaks and you ‘ll be mute… Follow the one who walks and you’ll end up lost…
Of course, I am not trying to put words into your mouth, and I am not saying you are careless with your words. This is just an exploration…
Someone may have mentioned this in an above comment, so sorry in advance for any repetition.
A couple of points leap to mind.
First, not everyone who is enlightened teaches it. The teachers do.
Next, the question ignores the swath of a person’s life outside of teaching about, or speaking about, enlightenment. In the spare example given we do not know what this theoretical teacher is recommending as actions, or practices that might come with, or be conducive to enlightenment.
Also, actions post-enlightenment are certainly likely to be much more helpful, and far less harmful, than not. I strain to think of an example of an enlightened person who became more burdensome to the world.
Thanks Travis,
As you have suspected, this was covered in the above comments. They’ve said it very clearly and beautifully.
Please, let’s be kind to the innocent question!
It is true that some questions may indeed be better than others, or at least, more clear. But they lack for nothing, and cannot ignore any specific content. That is the problem of the questioner.
The question does not ignore any of what you mentioned because, after meeting the question, you filled in what was needed. When coming up against the question if you need to know more you will explore it on your own (or together with another human being, as you may be doing here).
And that certainly may be true. This is all a part of your exploration of the question.
The question does indeed stand on its own. However I was not speaking to the question, but to the questioner. That process often involves a need for clarification.
There is huge value in simply sitting with a question, and seeing how it swims within your own context.
However, since this question was directed outwards, and seeking a response, I was not engaged in swimming with it in my own context, but rather in playing with it with the questioner and all present.
So, while the question may not ignore what I mentioned (How does ignorance even apply to it? It’s a non-sentient collection of symbolic representations used for communication.), I was left unsure as to whether the questioner (my target of interest) had.
Don’t worry sir…Takuin has no questions of its own. You don’t have to believe that, nor should it even be necessary.
The way these things arise is interesting, and I may have mentioned this before somewhere on this site. There are over 200 posts on this blog (this one might be 204) and nearly all of them arose from questions posed to me by others. These questions could be related to the content of this site, or just in daily life away from the computer and out in the world.
The particular question (in this post) was posed to a specific group of people, although anyone could freely say what they wanted to about it. The only reason I asked it of them was because I found it to be interesting, and I was very curious to how this would play out within them.
Also, this same question was posed to me a few days before I wrote this little piece, and I found it sufficiently interesting and thought others might think so as well.
Judging solely on the content and investigation of others, I’d call it a success.
But it is all because of them, and not Takuin.
Takuin is ignorant of many things, and he can only do his best when handling a question. But there is absolutely no motive here for a particular answer.
I agree it has been quite a successful post. Most interesting.
The question played out as it did when it encountered me.
Just what was wanted, yes?
“Takuin has no questions of its own”
This is interesting. Some of my blog posts are responses to questions, as yours. Some are quoting interesting observations by others. But many are also from my own questions that arise in response to what show’s up in life. Is someone’s observation valid to my understanding? Is there something that may be observed or made more clear? Still others arise as musings about recent observations. But even that musing tends to arise as a result of a sense of question.
And here I am again, musing about it… (laughs)
The questioner has not ended but who questions has changed several times. (laughs)
You know, I’m going to take Travis’ comment one step further. I’m having a hard time thinking of a “somewhat” enlightened spiritual teacher who wasn’t a net-plus for humanity. By “somewhat” I mean the man or woman who has had some realization happen to him or her, maybe not an abiding, complete, full awakening (whatever the hell all that means!), but more than just your garden variety, groovy spiritual experience.
Let’s take it a step further: what about the garden variety therapist, counselor, psychologist or life coach. People who have never really experienced any sense of the reality of their existence. For the most part, all they do is talk to people, or if they have been trained in the dominant schools of therapy, they spend a hell of a lot of time LISTENING and then dishing out a little bit of advice/wisdom. Having known many of these folks, I gotta definitely say that they have benefited humanity.
How? Well, if nothing else, they can provide comfort to a person who is hurting inside. The suffering someone is experiencing declines, at least temporarily. The same could be said for all us teacher types going on and on about this enlightenment thing. We can, if nothing else, speak to something within a person who then might experience some shift, how ever small, that not only helps ease their burden, but may in fact spark some meaningful transformation down the road.
Couldn’t I make the same argument for Prozac? Hasn’t it at times at least temporarily reduced the suffering of a person in distress? Well, yeah, I probably could make that argument! LOL God works in mysterious ways. Argue with Her at your own peril.
This is an interesting sentence to me…
In general, do you think people are only interested in the ‘enlightened one’ because of what they believe they can take from him/her?
Obviously, most listeners go to the guru to find something. It is not as if one is strolling through the park and happen to come upon a street musician; they go to the guru for a specific reason, no? Is that reason, to take something?
Not that it is good or bad or anything like that. Just another facet to explore…
I think it is true that most seekers got to a perceived enlightened-one in order to get something.
I have a tooth-ache, I go to the dentist wanting for less pain. The SOB says I need a root-canal, which is more pain and not what I wanted. Still, the dentist knows (or thinks she knows) that in the long run the root-canal will serve my goals.
Same experience with an enlightened-one. We go for a reason muddled in our current delusional context and we have something revealed that does not fit that context. We know we are in pain, and we want it stopped. The enlightened-one knows we are not in pain, and need nothing. The two make for a very amusing pairing.
Amusing is such a good word here.
Many people have this problem you know; they feel they can deal with their inner beauty or inner turmoil or whatever, in the same way as going to the dentist. They will go and listen, be told what to do, then go home and do it. Then they’ll be pain free.
The dentist deals with the physical, and we can see the results afterward. We can measure results, return for check-ups, and so on. But the guru, and the listener do not deal with the physical, although one has the hope that he might break through using brute force as if it were a physical problem.
This is a source of frustration for many. If one is only accustomed to using force to change a situation, what will they do when faced with themselves?
If one is only accustomed to using force to change a situation, what will they do when faced with themselves?
Hopefully? Something else.
There can be the sense that one may go to a guru or wish to find a guru but I also see examples people tell of being dragged to a guru or running into them accidentally, like a street musician. One of the more profound meetings in my history was entirely accidental and quite startling due to their profound presence. And then there is those things that just show up to “teach” us…
Those accidental meetings can be some of the most powerful…
I am not a teacher…I’m still working on listening…I’d consider myself far from enlightened. Juxtaposed next to my awareness however, seeing truths which the world calls lies, leads to believe perhaps enlightenment flows through me….
I am not sure if I was called to teach, I do know i like to talk; that could be my path brining me to where I am.
Hey Boosy,
I know you listen carefully and you take all of this seriously, and that alone places you in a great ‘position’ (for lack of a better word). That sort of ‘non-assertion’ of what is right and wrong, will provide clarity in all of your investigations.
If you like to talk then do it. I look forward to reading whatever it is you have to say on your own.
You ask that question if you see us as dis-jointed and separate on this journey however, one who recognizes that each of us has one piece to add to the giant puzzle will begin to look at what each person offers in a more integral and cohesive way. Your story or piece may very well match up to the piece my life represents so when we put them together – side by side – a deeper universal understanding emerges. Let us never question the inner urging of anyone – that is such a sacred bond between him and his Higher Self and even if it is ego motivated, it is still between him and the Divine. Let us focus on our own purpose, our own niche that no one else on this earth can fulfill, except us.
Thanks nerakami,
We did go into this a bit above, but thank you for your observations. And I’d like to repeat myself here; Takuin has no questions of its own, and there is no intention or idea of wanting a specific answer.
If there is a teaching in any of this it is to observe how these things arise within you when faced with the question, whatever that question might be.
Each of us is our own greatest teacher.
The Reply thing is great for reading such a complex interaction online but it suck for the comments subscription. (laughs) They come too linearly. Nothing to be done, just an observation…
So it is difficult to know what is being appended to what? I never thought of it in that way. I’ll take a quick look at some options, but I think you are right and there is nothing to be done with it.
By the way, thanks to everyone that has made this such a wonderful exploration. I may do this kind of thing once per month. If I decide to do that, expect to be called upon again!!
Thank you very much.
Davidya,
It can be said in that way – …no questions of its own… – and we can also look at it in another way.
It might seem silly to say it, because if you look over this site, there have been thousands of questions…they are all over the place. But this is so interesting to me. We can ask this question:
Who is asking?
Now we’ve heard people say this before, and many might just accept it as a phrase and leave it at that. And I am sure you’ve gone over this at some point in your life as well. But really, what is it the questioner hopes to receive? Do they want a specific answer? An answer that fits in with their identity? Or maybe they only care about what the answer may provide for them in the future?
This is a kind of questioning. It arises from a neediness or an idea of lack, or whatever you might call it, on the part of the questioner. And although they may be great questions, they are somewhat tarnished by the intention of the user. They are not – how shall we say? – honest.
Then there is another kind of questioning. One that appears suddenly and naturally – Organically? – with no effort on the part of a questioner. It is very much like the wind blows, then the branch sways. The branch does not intend to sway, but moves with the wind. It is very natural and without effort. Let’s see if I can come up with an example…
Someone says to Takuin, “All people are hateful. They just worry about what they can take from you.”
This is how it happens…there is nothing screaming out, “You are wrong!! It is not like that, it is like THIS!!” Instead of that surety, and I don’t know if I can explain this well, there is a kind of gap. Something is…wrong…and Takuin does not know why. So there is a curiosity that arises. And this is not a wrongess arising from an opposite view of rightness…(I have always said to find out for yourself. But the questioning does not arise from wanting to find out. The finding out is a natural by-product of that curiosity.)
Call me silly, but did you ever see the old Batman program from the 60’s? The one with Adam West and Burt Ward? Whenever they would have a scene with a villian, like The Joker or The Riddler (wasn’t Frank Gorshin great?), they would always tilt the camera to show that the villian was ‘crooked’. This is close to the feeling that arises, haha. Not that something is perceived and believed to be wrong or crooked….something is just off.
So back to the above question, Takuin does not worry about what he can take from anyone, so perhaps there is something strange about the statement. The feeling comes, curiosity rises, and a question may be asked. “All people worry about what they want to take from another.” The most simple question to ask oneself is, Is that true?
But I wouldn’t bother asking the person that believes the statement. Besides, what kind of answer is there for them? Their answer lies in the statement they already believe to be true.
Yes, I know you’ve spoken of it before, but it somehow struck me differently this time. A curiosity is how you explain it. Good way to put it.
I’ve found that one must be careful with what is interpreted as crooked. There is the sense of crooked and then there is what may then get labeled as the source. It doesn’t happen often, but I do notice there is the occasion misread or assumption. Holding a conceptual model or judgment. Of course, this is the mistake ego makes all the time as it only uses conceptual models.
Then it is useful to question not just the question that arose, but the response…
Ah yes, Batman with a paunch and Robin anal. “Holy X, Batman!”, where X is the circumstance. Cool car.
“Is that True?” Byron Katie explores that nicely.
I have been thinking more about this subject and I wanted to add some more thoughts to the conversation. I think the issue of people wanting a set formula from a teacher is really based on the idea that they think all the answers are external. Meaning they are too identified with the body.
This past week, my body has been badly hit by an upper respiratory infection. It has been very unpleasant but it just effecting my body and has no effect on who I truly am. I do not identify myself according to the body and so I see what is happening and just let the body deal with what it has to deal with.
I think people are so unaware of what they truly are and how powerful they are, they think everything of value is outside. So with that mindset it appears logical that a guru or teacher will have the formula. And let’s face it, many people want things to come easily…even enligtenment (whatever that is). Many people want things handed on a silver platter and often a teacher is mistaken for a silver platter.
“a teacher is mistaken for a silver platter”
Perfect – it is both insightful and amusing…
Thank you, Davidya.
I recently have realized that so many people expect things to come so easily because they intellectually understand the concept and so they think understanding brings about the reality of the concept. Kind of like you know that there is a thing called coffee and just because you know it exists, it means you know what it tastes like. People forget you have to experience something in order to know it.
Yes, indeed. And the fact a person may think they know what something is will prevent them from actually knowing it through experience. I have a teacher who suggests that the last barrier to awakening is our ideas of what it is.
I am not a teacher. I was shocked when I read someone called me that in a comment.
I write. I’ve always written. So it is natural to write about awakening. People respond. People say it is helpful. But whether it is helpful or not to humanity, I write.
My journey started because others pointed the way. And so it may be helpful to continue to point the way.
There was a time when I effortfully pursued teachings. And then there was a far more glorious time when effort was released. Perhaps teachings are necessary to see that they are not.
I’m only guessing, but I think most of the awakening and awakened do not teach. I suspect many who do share would not if they didn’t have the facility of internet.
If people feel they learn some thing from your writing, then you’re a teacher. Get over it. (laughs) Just kidding.
As I mentioned way up there somewhere, I’ve found writing a useful way to process what has arisen. For years, I would journal on fullscap and file it away. Now, we have blogs and I gradually started to share some of that. So yes, that would not have happened without the net.
Perhaps at some point in the musing, some of us may have written an obscure book or ‘tother. “Takuin – Life Beyond the Image” This is easier. Although I did the first too, from a similar place of processing.
“If people feel they learn some thing from your writing, then you’re a teacher. Get over it. (laughs) Just kidding. ”
I see your point, and it’s fine. I wrote because writing clarifies. The process of writing also helped in reading and listening with awareness. I wrote a book based on my journal. It seemed expedient to put the writing on a website. It’s taken a life of its own now.
The original question was: is teaching helpful to humanity? Yes it is, even if the teacher’s experience is shallow. The caution I throw out is don’t get mesmerized with any fixed idea. In clearer words, don’t take anyone too seriously.
Hi all, I had some comments :
1. If you have the word “teaching” in your mind aren’t you proceeding with expectations and judgements – for instance, I am a teacher and you a student, and I will impart something to you. This seems ego driven to me.
2. You talk of the people who feel compelled to teach, perhaps you can learn more from people who don’t feel the need to teach – although you wouldn’t necessarily hear about them. In the same vein someone might say “well I would really like to meet the people who built the Pyramids of Giza” – but a meeting with the people who restrained their ego and didn’t build them might be more valuable.
3. The post reminds me of something I heard once : people who are good at something tend to think that thing important.
4. “some of us just can’t help but teach” – this sounded like “I can’t control myself”
5. Takuin you said “Hope springs eternal …” – this ironic comment makes me think you are not all the way there.
Cheers
Sacha
“Teacher” is just a label. It depends more on how the role is played. We could say there isn’t a teacher unless there is a student. But who is the student? When one is on a journey of exploration and understanding, the teacher is the student and the student the teacher. It is more a dynamic of mutual exploration than formal exposition. We learn from the questions.
Yes, you can learn from everyone. Someone who is building an edifice of teaching like the pyramids we may want to avoid, yes. Ideal is capturing the essence.
It is natural for people to give importance and meaning to what they are good at. That’s where their attention is focused. The mistake is only in judging what should be important for another.
In the same way, how can one help but be who they are?
All the way where? If it is infinite, when is the goal reached?
It’s useful to keep in mind that every human is human. As long as they are living a human life, they will remain human. They may reach some sort of exalted vision or have a deeper sense of being. This may be useful to share with others. But we should never expect them to be more than they are. Nor place “enlightenment” or other such ideas as being in some unreachable place that only the perfect attain. That’s just a story that will keep you from yourself.
Awakening is normal and ordinary. It is not perfection. But it is a change and many people can use a little help with their journey. Each voice of someone who’s been on that part of the path can help some others with theirs.
Have fun with it or you’ve lost the point…
What’s wrong with teachers/teaching? I go to an Aikido teacher to get my mastery of Aikido to the next level. If I want to start home-brewing I would look at some teachings on the subject before I went out to buy gear and hops.
Teaching just means passing on some knowledge or skill acquired from doing thing A longer than the student has. In spiritual circles the idea of worship gets tied in with teachers/teaching in a way that does not happen elsewhere (in nearly all cases.) That is what needs to be looked at – inappropriate worship; not teaching.
In my (less than always) humble opinion, of course.
I go to see a therapist. The contract that we have is that I give him £60 and he gives me 50 minutes of therapy. And that is as far as society understands it.
What actually happens is that many many many transactions occur. Something passes from him to me, something from me to him. Who is teaching, who is receiving. Many things. Many things. The money for instance is just a way to organise the situation it has no other meaning.
As for the rightness / wrongness of “teachers/teaching”, I don’t think there is such a thing. It is just a question of understanding that many things are passed between people and so the idea of a teacher (as in one superior person imparts something to another) is not correct.
“It is just a question of understanding that many things are passed between people and so the idea of a teacher (as in one superior person imparts something to another) is not correct.”
If you mean superior in a general sense, I agree. If you mean in a specific sense, I disagree. The reason for going to a teacher in the first place is they have a superior development along a particular line that you want to improve.
Let’s not get too attached to our words here. They are useful for our conversations, but are useless as life preservers.
There needs to be a kind of flexibility in the words we use, because it is dangerous to commit totally to our descriptions. When we commit we say things like, “Ah yes, I see it…you are like THIS, so I will react to you in the way that most closely suits my belief of whatever THIS is..” This is not living.
We would amaze ourselves if we closely listened to the words we use.
Wait, so should we not get attached to our words, or should we listen to them closely?
Listening, in this sense of inward listening, does not require a listener, or a person controlling for a desired result. Listening to our words is not necessarily about hearing them as they come out of our mouths, but seeing them arise before any sound is uttered.
Not sure how that addresses my question, but thanks!
I guess I did not understand your question then. I took it to mean you were saying the two are identical; the attachment and the listening. That is what I was addressing in the reply.
I think I see the initial confusion. Since we are speaking here as a group in a medium that is external to our internal experience I assumed we were talking about listening to others, and to words put out into the world.
Not sure were we skipped that line, but in the context of internal conversation you are spot on.
But, as you said let’s not get too attached to our words “here” I thought you meant here as in ouit in the world in this medium.
Travis,
Ah, I see what you mean now. Thanks for clearing that up!
Whew! You’re welcome. Part of this life is that I often appear to be a reflexively argumentative contentious ass-hat, which I am, just not in this case.
Cheers!
The ability to listen without being caught by the meaning. To see what meanings arise but not get carried away on that idea.
This is a skill that is developed in the awakening process. Some people do not have that consistently so if they try to listen, all they hear is what they are caught in. The idea will thus go in circles. The judger will make a judgment, then judge the judgment, then judge the judgment of the judgment, etc.
The trick is to stop for a moment and see if you can take a step back. If you can, then just listen. See what arises. Some things will be seen very differently when we are not in them.
Very true. Of course it is easy to then come back with a judgment about how awake someone else is by holding opinions about what we heard them say, and assuming that any misunderstanding is obviously due to inferior awakening-hood.
Another skill that leaps forward during awakening is listening with a discerning ear, hungry to get into real relation with the other speaker and inviting clarification of words used to facilitate that relating.
Wittgenstein believed that thought flowed from language, and not the reverse. Our thinking is dictated by the language we have and how we use it. Imprecise language leads to imprecise thinking.
My father has this lovely habit of jumping in between sentences during verbal exchange and saying, “Wait, what did you mean by X? Did you mean Y, or Z?” Slows down conversation and makes it MUCH more related and skillful.
Thought arises from several things. One is language, in the sense of words and meaning. Mind is always working to make associations. Find meaning.
Emotions will also drive thinking. The mind is uncomfortable with simply having an emotion, so it will tend to associate itself with an available thought. We feel fear, so associate it with our circumstance. Sometimes this is valid, sometimes not.
Finally, thoughts can arise from a deeper place. But those are thoughts more rare and are not so easily heard if the mind is buy making meaning and the emotions are in a drama.
Davidya, I can totally agree with all of that. I don’t see how it was pertinent to this particular conversation, but yes thoughts can come from emotional resistance and a “deeper” place. I still find they filter through the language we have on hand, and that is why I am so partial to specificity and delving into meanings used.
In the light of your comment I see every reason to continue with that habitual pattern as a skillful way of being. Cheers!
Hi Travis
tI was simply a clarification on your comment that “thought flowed from language”. Not a criticism, just a broader statement so people can understand their experiences.
Earlier I posted something that I thought was interesting but might have been missed. I said that Takuin’s earlier sarcasm indicated something not quite right internally, he said “Hope springs eternal …”
I have the feeling that sarcasm has problems with it … but I am not quite clear why, I just have that feeling. Like it is a lack of directness or honesty.
“Hope springs eternal …” … what does this mean exactly ? Does it mean “I believe it will take a long time” or “I don’t believe it will happen”. If so, why not just say it directly ?
Thanks, Sacha.
It meant, in the above comment, neither of those two. “Hope springs eternal,” in the way it was used means, hopefully these things will come to pass. That is the way Takuin has always used it to mean. Others may have a slightly different or very different interpretation of those words, but that is one reason why we question; to find out the meaning of various speakers.
The original comment from Aline was…
…then Davidya replied with…
If it is a rote rehearsal of the past, as Davidya mentioned, it is rather useless for what we’ve been discussing in these comments. And how many of us in this world have been taught by those only interested in repetition? I’d wager most human beings with an education of some kind (education in this case meaning schooling of some sort).
So, hopefully, the one teaching is more than a copy and paste automaton. Therefore, hope springs eternal.
I find it far more interesting the way you see another internally…
Please don’t take this the wrong way…Takuin is not defending anything here as there is nothing to defend, but let’s take a look into this just a bit…
How can Sacha know anything about what goes on within the mind of another? Certainly we function in the same way, as far as the physical functioning of the body is concerned. And perhaps there are inferences that can be made, but we must be careful.
There are some people that say, “The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior,” and that might be true for a mind anchored down with habit after habit. But we must be careful what we believe to be true about the functioning of others. Is Sacha aware of its own functioning? Does it see into itself clearly, as if looking through a pane of clean glass? Or could it be something else?
Only you can say for sure, Sacha, and this is the beauty of this life. No one can say anything about you with certainty. You can share of yourself, but even so, there is no one in this world that can say, I KNOW Sacha. They may be able to say, I have KNOWN Sacha, but it is terrible to think we actually know someone; to kill them with our conclusions about them.
You certainly have the right to feel that way. I will do nothing to change your mind about any of that. I can tell you something to the contrary, or try to convince you otherwise, but I have no desire to control you in any way. I can apologize if I hurt another human being, make amends in some way, and think about how to conduct myself in a slightly different manner. But if I do it to please you, it is one of the greatest disservices to you.
If I change in order to please you, all I have done is extended the time until your explosion. If you feel this way now and do not see how this goes on within you, it will happen again and again. Now I am not saying there is anything wrong with you or your way of thinking here. It is just my intention to raise other possibilities. Has this arisen within you before? In similar situations? Only you can say for sure and, if you are interested in doing so, it is up to you to see how this goes on or arises within you.
You raise very interesting questions, Sacha, and I hope we’ll see each other again here. And please feel free to reply to all comments, not only Takuin’s (You should be able to see the Reply button on almost every comment). Everyone on these pages are pretty good about welcoming others and their opinions and questions, whatever it may be.
Just remember it is not Takuin’s intention to pigeon-hole you, or think he knows the kind of person you are. He does not. He only wishes to share in the beauty of what you are, and hopefully, we both can share that with others.
Hope springs eternal, my friend…
Sarcasm? You should reread the comment I made he was responding to. A teasing jest perhaps. I was amused. You’re reading far to much into it, including a judgment of Takuins “progress”. This is a discussion on the value of a teaching.
Takuin comes from a place of no teaching. I come from a place with a long tradition of teaching. Others here come from somewhere in the middle. It makes for interesting discussion. But you’ll notice it’s mostly on exploring points of agreement rather than who’s right or wrong. That’s a great way to find core truths.
Davidya,
And that is a beautiful point you have made. There can be nothing more different that the way we have moved through this life, if that is the right way to say it. But it is in no way a hindrance. It may take a comment or two before we can fully understand one another, but that is part of the beauty of living; finding out the meaning or flow or intention or whatever of the other person.
It is true that certain human beings have no time to listen because they are so caught up in whatever it is they think might be important. And that fact makes all of these interactions – and taking the time to listen – all the more beautiful.
Sacha,
Ah, I just realized I might have misunderstood your use of the word internal. Internal for Sacha, or internal for Takuin? I may have missed your point.
Travis,
Carry on with your ass-hattery in all its glory, my friend. Just be diligent in coming together with others in your arguments. (Coming together meaning clarity in our words. It is a daily struggle for Takuin. He’s not always successful.)
It’s a mindfulness practice, is all.
Mindfulness from soulfulness. Mind alone cannot see it’s own folly’s.
Soulfulness sees no follies. Soul does not judge. That is mind’s job.
Takuin observes and asks, “We go to listen to someone speak on a podium, we may have or may not have a realization, then we go and speak on a podium. My big question is, In what way is this helpful to humanity?”
1. “We go to listen to someone speak.” Presumably, he speaks in order to be heard. So we help him by going to listen. If we give the speaker money we help him survive to keep on speaking. If making money is why he speaks, we help him fulfill his business plan.
2. “We may or may not have a realization.” If we have a realization and then go speak of it, then we help others have a realization. If we don’t but go speak as if we did, then we help others have a realization. “If you understand, things are just the way they are. If you do not understand, things are just the way they are.”
The realizations that members of our audience have may or may not have anything to do with the one of which we speak.
3. If we make money by speaking, then we help everyone to whom we later give the money. We help those in our audience who need to make money, by showing them a way to do so.
My big question is, In what way is this helpful to humanity?
1. Well, I find this recent conversation I had with a friend of mine, who is a doctor. He was sick that day, but told me that he wouldn’t take any medicine and would just allow the immune system of the body to deal with it. And as much as possible, he prefer to not prescribe medicine also to his patients; however, patients are so stubborn, they expect all the time that they need medicine. Yet this same friend of mine, takes medicine prescribed to him by his psychiatrist.
2. It got me into thinking, is the body equipped enough to deal with physical problems but not with psychological ones? And in relation to your question, is the role of the “spiritual doctor” something like that of a medical doctor or that of a psychiatrist?
3. Certainly, all of them are “teaching” something but what does it mean to be spiritually sick, is it akin to being physically sick or mentally sick? Is the body, by body I include the brain, not equipped to “cure” this sickness without any help from anybody or anything?
4. If “spiritual doctors” aren’t like medical doctors, what are they then? Some sort of an artist, perhaps, who can be “classical” or perhaps “avant-guard”?
5. Finally, help is sought because it’s needed, whether that need is imagined or real both by the person offering the help or by the person in need, help still function on the basis of need. If this is the case, “spiritual teaching” is just another commodity in the market, if there’s demand there’s supply. In this sense, spiritual teaching is helpful to humanity because it satisfies a need, just like medicine. Nothing else. Now whether or not, they “cure” some sort of sickness, I guess we have to inquire what is this sickness made of, perhaps decode its DNA, and eradicate it with some sort of vaccination, just like we did with viruses that are no longer heard of today.
Sass,
This is very important, you know. The ‘patient’ believes they need the help, the medicine, or whatever it is. If we are speaking of a real physical ailment, it is certainly something that can be handled over a period of time. But there is no real progressive betterment in the mind. That is not to deny the seeming reality of minds trapped within the confines of thought, however.
I think you have pointed out the entire structure of these ‘relationships.’ If we go deeply into this, we may find it is no more than an unnecessary treatment for a non-existent problem. It all comes back to the person needing to be ‘fixed.’ That, and perhaps the person supposedly in possession of the cure.
Spiritual commodities are one of the hottest things going. But it may be doomed to promise the possible while leaving us hungry.
I used to say (and I may have lifted this from someone else, I can’t remember), a chef is more important than a guru. The chef can take your order and successfully satisfy your need and remove your hunger. But the guru shows you the menu, tells you how great it all is, and leaves you with nothing but an empty stomach.
But I suppose it really is not the guru’s fault. It is on the shoulders of the person pressing the guru for a full stomach.
I’m coming into this conversation very late. My response is to the original post/question by Takuin.
The question about what’s beneficial to humanity only has meaning within the context of the dream of self, which is, by definition, not real. Any story generated to explain dualities of cause and effect or beneficial versus harmful (etc.) are meaningless. And yet sometimes stories are generated. Who is there to have an opinion on the matter? No one. And yet opinions seem to happen sometimes. Curious.
From outside the dream, your question is meaningless. There is no such thing as “beneficial” or “harmful”. There is no cause and effect. There is only what is. “Our” ideas about it are irrelevant. “We” are not even real. If “we” aren’t real, how can “our” ideas have any validity at all?
In response to the post above me, your response to Sass, if there are no separate individuals, how can we assign fault to them? Fault can only exist in a dualistic framework.
Cheers and namaste.
Thank you, Shinai.
You’ve left a wonderful comment here, and I will respond in the next post on the blog. When it is ready, I’ll leave a link here so you might find it easily.
Thank you very much…
The post is now live…
http://www.takuin.com/the-landscape-of-the-dreamer/
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