A conversation with another, is a conversation with oneself.
How to describe something,
That cannot be described…
Maybe there is a way to point to it?
That is the only thing,
- The Pointing -
But afterward,
It is out of our hands.
We cannot really influence the listener,
To be free with the words.
Most will make something out of it,
Another thing to have or build up to.
All we can do is talk,
Or write,
Or whatever.
It’s the hardest thing,
To NOT have something to have,
Or build up to.
I wonder if it’s,
A necessary process?
When seen from the eyes the doer,
The one using force to create,
Existing to build up and have more,
Perhaps, yes.
But we can’t say for sure.
People going through a process always say,
“We all have to go through the process.”
We should be suspicious.
Some have said,
People who hit enlightenment ‘out of the blue,’
Like Ramana Maharshi,
Did the tedious work in a previous life.
That we can never know.
There are many explanations,
And none of them quench our thirst.
Perhaps they are not past lives,
Living in a past time,
Doing things,
In a different body,
As we’ve been told.
Perhaps it is some bizarre remnant of memory,
Passed down through the genetic codes of our ancestors.
We can’t really say either way.
I have talked to many about past lives,
They absolutely believe in them.
But if this concern over past lives is important,
Why do we remain so dull and violent?
It may turn out,
The talk of past lives,
Is absolutely right.
But so what?
Will it really make a change,
For human beings?
Most likely,
Things will go on,
As they always have.
That we can never know.
It is a mental exercise.
People who are miserable,
And do terrible things,
Don’t really have a choice.
They lack the power,
To do anything else.
Perhaps they do not realize,
There is something other than,
Their way of life?
It is such a closed way of living.
The sphere of their ‘personal’ consciousness is such,
There may never be a way out for them.
We could say ‘closed mind,’
But it is not quite that.
For whatever reason,
For them,
The capability is not there.
We can’t say it will NEVER change,
Because there is no way to know.
I had anger and rage,
And fear and all that,
And i knew it was wrong,
But i kept doing hurtful things.
The power to change,
Just wasn’t there.
The ‘person,’
Can change over time.
One can go from terrible,
To loving.
The self can make changes,
In its outward ‘appearance.’
These things can take time.
But what if there was never a person there?
People can change,
From this to that.
If we analyze it,
After the fact,
We can see a progression.
One can live a wonderful life,
Making conscious changes,
To their personality,
To the self,
Or whatever.
But some beings,
For whatever reason,
Skip beyond all of that,
To a kind of no man’s land,
Where the very idea,
Of a separate person,
Is just so odd,
So unbelievable.
There is just no way to see it,
As a possibility within oneself.
And in that nothingness,
There is no time or progression,
As we mentioned residing,
Within the self.
No self-development,
No becoming,
No someday I’ll be,
None of that.
Then others come along,
- other selves -
And decide they want to have,
Capture and own,
That nothingness,
And they try to progress up to it.
In the end I suppose,
If one is there,
They will have no way of knowing,
If anything they did to achieve,
Was at all helpful.
The whole teaching of no-self,
is frustrating to be honest.
What about those,
Who’ve never heard of all this?
They’re not making any effort.
We are told,
We have to do this or that,
To be free.
But what of the person,
With no access,
To that ‘knowledge’?
Are they doomed,
To live terrible lives?
Never.
They just live,
According to what,
They are born with.
That is all any of us can do.
Of all the teachings you’ve studied,
Did it solve problems for you?
Or did you have to look,
Seeking it out,
For yourself?
We all begin,
With the same material.
We are all born,
With the same stuff.
It might seem we lack,
Compared to others,
But this is only a shadow,
Of the outer world,
The physical,
The phenomenal.
Freedom is here,
Available to anyone,
At any time,
And it does not depend,
On anything outside of us.
There might be a time,
When one is not aware,
They are not aware.
Maybe it is helpful to hear,
“Have a look over there for a bit.”
But i am not convinced,
It is necessary.
If there is some inner turmoil,
We usually run outwardly,
For a solution.
But the solution is here,
Not there.
It is the turmoil that best teaches us…
But how do we know,
The turmoil is a teacher,
If no one has told us?
We rely too heavily,
On the ‘people who know.’
We cannot take a step on our own,
For fear of doing something wrong.
Certainly,
It has to start somewhere,
But if one lives a completely selfish life,
It may be impossible,
To see it clearly.
It might take an event,
Life changing,
Destroying everything one holds dear.
Unable to cope,
One might kill themselves,
Or hide, running in-to a bottle.
Or they can take a stand,
Resolving to see it through,
To the very end.
It is not easy.
Turmoil,
Greed,
Envy,
Jealousy,
Or whatever it might be.
We run.
We run to the person that can help,
Or attack outwardly the object,
We hold responsible,
For our pain.
Or we simply run away.
But why do we never say,
“For the love of God,
I am going to see this thing,
For what it is,
And find out at last,
if it has any power over me.”
This teaching is within all of us.
It calls to us constantly,
Like the Sirens on the rocks.
But we have plugged our ears with beeswax.
19 Comments
We rely too heavily,
On the ‘people who know.’
We cannot take a step on our own,
For fear of doing something wrong.
That’s me! Oh boy, that’s me! From “the search” to art (I draw and paint as a hobby). Afraid to make the first stroke on an empty page or canvas for fear of doing something wrong. Afraid to figure out the meaning of my search on my own for fear of doing something wrong.
Thanks for pointing the finger back at me, Takuin. I appreciate your words.
Mike
Mike,
Ahh, it is the first stroke on the blank canvas that holds the highest virtue (if that is the right way to say it). It is a movement devoid of all outside influence.
You might find this video helpful, in that regard.
Francis Bacon
The physical development of the artist, or anything else for that matter, closely mirrors that of the search for liberation. Development for a physical skill can be improved over time, in the physical world. The search for enlightenment is also done in the physical world, but is it a physical search for a thing with no physical substance.
Any outer movement of the self, to improve or become better, is a physical phenomenon. Not that it is good or bad…
Thanks, Mike.
Oooooooweeee… Francis Bacon! I’m gonna have to be in a quiet place to watch these. Thanks for the link, Takuin!
You know what art I admire a lot? Japanese! Isn’t that funny? I love the simple, expressive lines. They say so much with so little. Same with their calligraphy… beautiful!
Don’t know if you noticed or not, but I’ve got an “art” blog too. Here’s a link to a post with an Asian-esque painting I copied: http://mayersart.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/zen-and-the-art-of-art/
Thanks again for the Francis Bacon link, and for your always-on-point words.
Mike
Hi Takuin,
So many thoughts and feelings come to mind reading this post. A lot of what you wrote reflects thoughts and feelings that I have had in my journey. It just reminds me of how in the Gita, Krishna tells Arjuna that is Arjuna were to see all aspects of God, he would not be able to handle it.
There are certain things about human existence that we will not fully know about until we are on the other side of the veil. What I do know is that we each are responsible for how we choose to be while here. It is like what you wrote in that last stanza, people do know what is the ideal way but they choose to ignore it or justify it or whatever else the human mind/ego does to stay in power.
Thank you, Nadia.
You are right. I think we all know what is right, in the sense you were speaking. It could be, what is right is in no way beneficial for the further development of a separate self.
It is that entity – the ghost speaking in hushed tones – pushing for further development. The ‘You are not quite ready yet,’ voice.
For some human beings, the ghost is the only voice they might ever hear.
“That is the only thing,
- The Pointing -
But afterward,
It is out of our hands.”
This “Pointing” can be misleading to, isn’t it? As if the one pointing and the one seeing – or better yet following- the trajectory of the pointing can both occupy a space absolutely separate from the ‘whatever’ being pointed.
“There are many explanations,
And none of them quench our thirst.”
Don’t we create the conditions of our own ignorance? OR didn’t we all, in one way or another, subscribe to some version of ignorance – scientific, spiritual, etc…? Then after the conditions have been set, we realize we are ignorant, then the search and learning begins, we seek explanations. The more we know, the more we become ignorant for the explanations just create more conditions for ignorance, for a search for more and more answers. How can a thirst be quench if the very act of quenching thirst just strengthens it?
“Turmoil,
Greed,
Envy,
Jealousy,
Or whatever it might be.
We run.
We run to the person that can help,
Or attack outwardly the object,
We hold responsible,
For our pain.
Emotions are too hot to handle, yes. But why are we afraid of our own energies?
Sass,
You have it. The very pointing gives the illusion of separate space, and it may even be responsible in some way for the adherence to the idea of something to strive for (in this sense of attaining bliss, or whatever).
I never cared much for that word – pointing – as a description of what is happening. It is not pointing that is helpful, after all. Perhaps reduction is a more appropriate word?
If we point for the listener, there is already an unfair dependence upon the speaker. But some will go on saying it is a necessary part of the process, but process implies a carrot dangling in front of us; the prize for all of our troubles. And yet again we go back to the pointing toward something we do not already possess.
You have it. I can add nothing more to what you’ve said.
I am certain you’ll come upon this in short order. You are very clear in your inquiry…
There are so many points here that could be touched on – it is a rich post.
What arose though was this quote. The ideas around “finger pointing” and approach to teaching. This gives another perspective on that…
“Stop looking where you are looking,
and look where you are.
What bounty! Love loving you just as you are.
Then, how does your life respond to that?
It is your lifetime.
This lifetime of attention is all we have.
Where is it being spent?”
– Gangaji
That is a nice quote…
The mind-body which calls itself Takuin let it all out on this one!
There is much wisdom here, and all of it resonant.
Right, it is ungraspable.
It is noticing not a process but it is a process until noticing happens.
The reincarnation bit–I stay away from spiritual concepts. I recognize it provides a framework for many. I go with Adyashanti, who says he can’t figure out for the life of him how spirituality and awakening got mixed up.
The time thing is confusing–I see it only in bits. It’s takes time to go from one known to another known. Spirituality, beliefs, wisdom, changing, improving takes time. This is going from known to unknown, where there is not superstition of time.
To be conscious, or to live in reaction to mind and conditioning, is a choice, but when we don’t realize it is a choice, is it a choice? Even when many of us do realize it is choice–when we realize that the basic dysfunction is the identification with thought, most of us are still not able to rest in awareness.
“We rely too heavily,
On the ‘people who know.’”
Beautiful.
Sorry the comment is long and disparate.
Kaushik,
No,no, it came off just fine.
These ’spiritual concepts’ are something we play with during life, perhaps just to pass the time…I can never say it is necessarily wrong, you know. It may turn out to be right in some way, but we can never know for sure.
It is a secret we’ll all take to the grave with us. In order for any of us to find out, we have to be truly dead, and by that time it is too late to do anything.
Through knowledge, we can build up beliefs about what will come to pass after we come to pass. But I can see no importance in this activity.
Well, let’s imagine on person is completely unconscious in their choices, or we might say an unconscious self. This self chooses this or that; whatever might strengthen its life and maintain its continuity. It just does not realize it as such.
Then there is the other, a conscious self (and these names are not really important; we’re just having a look). They might realize there is a choice, of sorts. But it is still a movement toward what it strongly desires to have.
In both cases, there is a person choosing a better life, or striving to have more (or less) in the future. So between the two (in this example), there is no difference.
That is a great point you have, and we hear it all the time. It is a superficial realization brought about by our hope of gaining from another person’s functioning. We read about the clarity another individual might hold, and we want that for ourselves. So we study and study, until eventually, on an intellectual level, we understand how it should work, in theory.
Don’t get me wrong, inquiry may be the key to all of it (I won’t say it is or it isn’t), and we have all heard stories of people coming to freedom through inquiry. But not once have I heard of a person coming to the end through someone else’s form of inquiry.
To inquire is to question. And that is all the teaching we’ll ever need on the subject.
Thanks, Kaushik…
Interesting thoughts, Takuin. I would not say “inquiry” in the formal sense of it had anything to do with my journey. In fact, it was not a familiar concept until recently. But in the broad sense of observing what was taking place and going further into it, yes. That arose naturally. But as a discipline? Certainly not. The way some describe it, that seems too much work. (laughs)
As to choice, the deeper question is to ask who is doing the choosing. It has nothing to do with the person. The me just takes credit or blame for what is occurring to obtain a sense of control. As you observe, the apparent choice takes place if the person is conscious or not.
It is very curious how everything becomes a concept. The mind likes to explain things, so when it hears of an experience it hasn’t had, it makes a concept and shares it with others. Many quite profound truths and spiritual experiences are thus degraded into ideas. A teaching emerges. (laughs)
I suppose this is because everything in fact IS a concept. The person builds personal concepts when reality has not shared it’s global concepts yet. As above, so below.
Reincarnation is one example. It is discussed as a concept or belief. One cannot find proof until after death. It is considered unknowable. And yet it is something that many do experience/remember directly. And can be proven by inference via details that arise that can be verified historically.
Largely, I would agree that pursing one’s past has little overall value. In fact, it can be a trap, taking one away from the point of the spiritual journey. But there can be minor benefits that arise when the bigger picture is gradually remembered. Naturally unfolds. For myself for example, a loss of the fear of death and a context for the curious nature of my life. (laughs)
As we shift deeper and deeper into who we are, the bigger picture naturally unfolds in whatever way has value. This brings natural side effects, including a broader vision and new abilities. But to pursue them directly is to get lost in an alley.
Davidya,
Ah, I see where I made my mistake…I didn’t mean to imply inquiry is a necessary part of anything. I meant to say, for those ‘using’ self-inquiry, or for those wanting to know how to do it, the only thing they need to know about it is the definition, otherwise we get caught in how to do it, how does he or she do it, am I doing it right, what is the best way, and so on.
Yes, it is not a discipline, really. And not a cultivated skill, in the sense of accumulating more knowledge and refining one’s technique.
Last night I was talking with a few people, and one of them asked a question something like, “When you have a bad feeling, what do you do?” It was asked of everyone. Some said they listen to music, go to the movies, talk with other people about it, and so on.
Then they looked to me for an answer. I said, “If I feel bad, I am suspicious of that feeling. It is not thought of as a state triggered by someone else, or the result of my being mistreated. All I can do is investigate the thing, and even that is gratuitous because I have yet to find anything.”
I’ve not talked about inquiry all that much; at least not directly. Perhaps there is a lot of inquiry in what I have written…well…I am sure there must be, but I’ve not made a conscious effort to insert it in there as something to do in order to get something else in the end.
As a discipline, no. Certainly not. I cannot even say it is something done consciously. You know, it is not even about a real, verbal question. There are no actual words or inner speaking. None of that.
I’m not yet prepared to say it is a natural function of the organism, but it just might be.
The word inquiry implies a question. Something you can pose and play around with. And perhaps that is the only way to approach it in the beginning. But there will come a time when the words fail, but not because you are doing something wrong. Maybe it is just time for them to die?
Davidya’s “I suppose this is because everything in fact IS a concept. ” is it. Anything that is discussed is a concept.
I was walking today, in a deep state–not a state, but you know what I mean. Later the thought popped up “how do I describe this” and I can’t. It’s both ordinary and extra-ordinary.
“The me just takes credit or blame for what is occurring to obtain a sense of control.” Yes, and continuity. It is all just distraction, entertainment, a conjurers misdirection. And it is so damn hypnotic and enjoyable! (laughs)
I can see now where the “search” has become an integral part of my ego identification. But that’s ok, I accept my foolishness and forgive it. Forgiveness, now who taught that, I wonder.
Anyway, it was a wonderful read, Takuin, and as usual I used it to gauge where I am, spiritually; where I measure up and where I fall short.
Egos! Like everything else they just are. HA!
Hi Eric – The trick is not ending this gauging and searching. That’s just the nature of the mind. The trick is going deeply enough into who you are. Then you stop believing it. That is how the identification ends.
How you go deeply depends on the person. A little of forgiveness, meditation, inquiry… so many ways. A car horn. (laughs) As one sage mentioned, even the smoke of a stinking bus…
Thanks, Eric.
Presumably, humans have egos for a reason. Its just too bad we can’t take them in for servicing…
I think we’re here to learn how to do the maintenance ourselves. Unfortunately I’m just not handy.
Eric,
You’ll have to do it, if it is going to be done.
It is probably best to leave it alone than to have someone else try and fix it for you. Otherwise, you might end up with one of those terrible Extreme Home Makeover disasters…
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