November Project: Question #6
This question was asked by Bill through the Contact Form
Now that there are more awakened people than ever before, how do you think this will effect the world that we live in?
We hear a lot of this talk these days, of there being more awakened people throughout the world, or that awakening is happening at a faster pace than ever before, and so on. There certainly are more people talking about it now, which I suppose is not a bad thing. But I just don’t see it as an actuality. At least, not yet.
I think there is one reason for the rise in these ideas, and that is the Internet. Now, more than ever before, we do not have an increase in awakened people, but an increase in our ability to see them all over the world. It is not the same thing. We have no idea if the number of awakened people is actually higher, or if we are just looking at what we have had all along.
The Internet makes it possible for us to see people all over the world, after all, and I find it suspicious that ‘more‘ people are supposed to be awakened, when that number has ‘increased‘ right along with our increased ability to access the rest of the world easily. Does that make sense?
And also, due to the Internet, we now have access to vast amounts of spiritual teachings and teachers. More of that knowledge is available than ever before, which does not mean an increase in awakening, but an increase in people’s ability to speak as if they are awakened. Again, not the same thing.
Design for Dreaming
I’m not saying that every teacher is out there trying to fool you, but it is true that the common lingo of awakening is so seductive, one can easily fool oneself without really noticing. Of course, there are only so many words we can use to describe awakening, and we shouldn’t necessarily throw things out just because of words commonly used. But, have you ever asked yourself why so many teachers sound so much alike? Does any part of you find that suspicious, or at least, the tiniest bit odd? Question it.
I am not sure what people are expecting. If there are so many more awakened people now, what does that mean? What makes that such a wonderful thing? Is it because we’ll be better as a species? We’ll take care of this world better than if we’re not awakened? Bullshit, I say. If people really want to help the world, they will do it now, and not wait for some magical date in the future when it will be better.
When humanity dies off, it will not be due to a lack of awakened people. It will be due to lack of right action. And anyone can make things right, right now. There is no need to wait. And we all know what right actions are, even if we claim we do not.
In order for us to survive as a species, we do not necessarily need more awakened people. We just need to take our collective heads out of our collective asses. 
Thanks so much for your Question, Bill.
{ 24 comments }
Best. Answer. Ever.
Thanks, Tom.
I agree with Tom.
Thanks, BC.
Amen Takuin. With Tom and BC on this.
Thanks, Brooks.
Well – I’ll be the contrarian then. (laughs)
I agree with your first points, Takuin. The increase in global communication opens the door for anyone to make premature claims to a much larger audience. It’s also increased teachers who have some value of awakening but are teaching an incomplete picture as “the one” truth. It’s created a number of other things, including an impression of more and bigger problems or brought things to light that were not seen before.
However I’ve had some experience on this subject. In the mid 70′s to early 80′s, literally millions of people in the West began meditating. There was a spike in waking experiences. A few of these people shifted. Some had great experiences but didn’t. A few of those thought they had and gathered followings and later did a crash and burn. As a result of that, I became skeptical about claims and realized my understanding was rather incomplete.
The second was a big wave of shifts in the 2006-2008 period. I was very skeptical of this at first until it was amongst people I knew personally. Some were people that didn’t meet any concept I had of what you needed to be to awaken. I began blogging then and met a number of others. More have happened since but not at quite as great a rate.
I’ve also noticed its “contagious”. We have the idea of “darshan”; spending time with the awake helps one awaken. But I’ve also noted that when someone wakes, it can have a cascading effect and others awaken too. I’ve seen this a half dozen times where clusters “switch” together, within minutes of each other. (If you’ve switched, you can feel someone else switch nearby. It feels like you’ve just woken further)
After about a year, I lost count of how many had switched but I’ve met many dozens now and my circles are not that large.
I’d say this perception is partly because I’ve associated with spiritual groups for many years, so know many on the path. But it is my experience that a lot more people have been waking recently than in prior decades. I’ve heard 2 teachers say there’s another even bigger wave building. We’ll see.
The numbers may still be small but I would no longer describe them as rare. Just look at all the web sites interviewing the (mostly) awake. It’s important to note that most people who awaken don’t teach. They just continue their lives as before, but now from a very different “place”. The first-aid salesman, the nurse, the bus driver.
I’ll also note that it generally takes awhile for awakening to mature and become fully embodied. The fully embodied are still pretty rare. So there are few examples one can point to show how good it can get.
What makes more awake good? It makes it easier for others to awaken. It lightens the load. But it may also make some of us feel like we’re being “pushed”. (laughs) Does it make everything all sparkly and bright? Well, actually for some people, it does. But not for most. This is not an overnight thing. It’s a process, like growing up. The idea of some special date you can wait for is indeed bull.
Actually, I’ve heard awakening described like your closing sentence.
Thanks, Davidya.
I suppose anything can be contagious if the group of people is large enough. We can see how this has gone on everywhere in the world, politically, socially, religiously, and so on. Awakening being easier in larger groups of people just makes me more curious (or suspicious
). Is it just a product of the group? Or is it something else? Is it sustained beyond the group? Those are things I cannot answer.
And good point on the interviews. That brings up something I have found to be interesting. So many people in those interviews (close to all of them?) have similar stories. They came from certain traditions, studied this or that, sat with various teachers, etc. That is just fine, and I am not bringing that up to imply it is wrong. But I often wonder if their awakenings are a product of the traditions they brought themselves up in?
In other words, is the awakening dependent upon the tradition? If it is, what does that suggest? Awakening is dependent upon mind? Upon a teaching or a technique? We both have said that one really can’t point to a certain event as the awakening trigger, so to speak, and if that is true are the traditions necessary at all? If there is dependency of some sort, can there be freedom?
Again, these are questions that cannot really be answered. Well, certain of them can be answered, but most of them cannot.
Those traditions have brought wonderful things into the world, to be sure. It is, of course, suspicious when one becomes dependent upon the tradition to function, and those are the things I like to explore.
Hi Takuin
I would not say such an awakening is the “product” of the group but rather, if someone is in a group of awake people, it makes the shift easier. Resonance we might say.
I’ve observed that someones concepts of awakening can be the last barrier to actually waking. In that sense, a tradition is a barrier. However, it’s usually just a small barrier thats made up for in the support it offers one’s journey. If there is a process being experienced, it’s much easier if we have some idea of what is taking place. A tradition can also point to practices that can enhance one’s process. So no, the awakening is not dependent on a teaching but it can support the process. Think of it like a map. Without a map, we will eventually get there. With a map, we can take a shorter route.
Some continue to teach the tradition after waking. Others end up developing their own.
The issue with traditions is when the core understanding is lost and the approach no longer leads to awakening. Then it decays into belief and dogma. India’s history is full of teachers who brought a revival in understanding. Shankara, Buddha, and so on. The question I would ask is are there living examples aside from the teacher themselves? Has the teaching helped others awaken?
“…if someone is in a group of awake people, it makes the shift easier. ”
Is this not groupthink? Or more useful perjhaps to say “after-story”. and after story that reflects whatever came “before”.
“I’ve observed that someones concepts of awakening can be the last barrier to actually waking.” Yes, beliefs are essentially empty, so whatever stories on tells oneself “pre-awakening” are barriers.
The question at hand is about the stories “post-[or rather amid] realization”. (I use quotations to indicate the whole/before after thing is flawed – but is always naturally part of any story). If we tell such stories, we inevitably present things others may cling to and turn into barriers, or not. If this is taught, the rest becomes less problematic.
Maps, any maps – have this flaw – this dual nature. Where is there to go?
We go as the stories, until they are seen as false, whereafter we go where we go and the still stories follow so closely that few can see the difference – if there is any. Only the perspective, the relationship, has shifted. Cultural flavor likely remains to any words shared, as we know what we know.
To ask whether teachings help or hurt awakening, is not a question that can help anyone. It is irrelevant without a particular context, a story. All pointers.
Thanks, K.
I always found it interesting when people spoke of stages of awakening. Stages are really only viewable after the fact through one’s interpretation of what came before. A stage is only a stage through analyzation, after all, and one needs comparison to make those sort of judgments anyway.
But I wonder sometimes, if there were no knowledge of stages, would people go through them? When people go through these so called stages, is it because they expect to go through them, or because they have been told it will happen? Probably not answerable, but interesting to think over…
And if I simply believe what you say, it is no more helpful. Perhaps there is only the exploration…
Yes, interesting to me as well. Fun for mind to play with, but not really interested in stages/no stages of awakening, or the old instant/gradual awakening thing. All and/or none. Just stories. Can be told in countless ways, and heard in even more.
Stories are always told in hindsight, internally or externally. Same, whether we sit and imagine we are looking “forward” or “backward” in what we perceive as time. Such thoughts arise in response to whatever we perceive/conceive “before” their arising. Singular flow.
It is all present imagining, present exploration as you say – of whatever presents, as this experiencing… Only this.
Overwhelmingly ordinary.
The other “interesting” thing, is I can’t come up with a single question I’d ask you that has anything to do with anything “spiritual” (which is just a matter of definitions). Fortunately, there is no lack! *L*
Hi Takuin, K
I certainly appreciate how it can sound like “group-think” but there’s a big difference between a concept and an awakening. Even between an experience of our nature and the actual shift.
I also appreciate that many view such ideas of a process or unfolding as a waste of time. But in my own experience, I’ve found same very valuable. At several points on my journey, I’ve gone through major shifts in reality. This is much easier and smoother if we have some idea of what is going on. If we don’t, people can fight it and you get experiences like Segals “Collision with the Infinite.” Or “Perfect Madness.”
Further, there is a large number of people who confuse the inner unity of Self realization with Advaita. (non-duality) The red flag is the experience of a separate Maya. In Unity, NOTHING is separate. If something is still found separate, this is not the full flowering of enlightenment. Sages such as Vasishtha also emphasized this point. Don’t stop at Self realization.
We may rag all we want about the pointlessness of concepts, maps and process but if you throw the baby out with the bathwater, you’ve lost the potential. Sure the maps are just stories, but where are they pointing? Sure any description is duality, but this is the nature of language. If you discount the finger instead of looking at where its pointing you have, as the saying goes, sold a diamond for the price of spinach.
Where is there to go? MUCH deeper, bigger, fuller. Seeing is only the beginning. If it’s still empty, you have not seen what you are fully yet.
And to your question Takuin. I found myself going through stages in a process but I didn’t know where it was going. When I found a couple of maps, then it began to go much more quickly and smoothly. Not because the maps were perfect or reality but because they pointed the way.
Sure, that’s how we tell it anyway.
This “difference” amounts simply to that of direct experiencing “vs” pointing to direct experiencing – in whatever form (map, stage, whatever) we attempt to express this as.
These “different” expressions, are also aspects of direct experiencing… Only conceptually different, a matter of appearances, and thus ever missing the mark if we make these sorts of differences out to be of any use (though they clearly appear so in the individual stories – and also appear similar across other such stories/traditions – but mind is mind so how else could this appear!).
Useful to note to seekers/student “pre-awakening” (makes me laugh to think that way)- if this inherently self-limiting nature is included to assist them in not attaching to any particular model/map/system. Use them, as in the “thorn to remove a thorn” thing, then put them aside until you find someone else with a thorn…
A bit twisty, but if it’s not supremely slippery it’s just story.
Sort of a moot question on face. The only use in pondering whether others are “awakened” or “enlightened” or whatever, lies in this notion of “others”, and how that relates to/implies/reinforces “self”. A nice slippery pointer (but what isn’t?).
Whether there are others or not, many or few, is just thinking. Fine for distraction/diversion – or other forms of ‘mentertainment’ – which is as popular in “spiritual” circles as anywhere else. Only the questions change, and only the questioners label them “spiritual” or not.
“There are no sentient beings, thus I vow to save them all…” How many really understand what this tries to convey? No matter.
A pursuit is a pursuit is a pursuit, I suppose.
Okay, I guess I’ll say more now that I’ve read other comments. The reason I scored Takuin’s post a solid “10″ is that we have a knowledge problem to deal with. We do not (and cannot) know the historical rate of “awakening”. We have absolutely no basis for deciding whether awakening is happening more quickly or not. Even if you have good anecdotal evidence, as Davidya does, that more awakening is occurring in your personal experience, this tells you nothing about what your experience might have been had you lived 500 years ago. With no reliable records of past events, you have no basis for judging. In fact, we have no reliable data for current events in this regard.
At any rate, I think Takuin makes a wonderful point. We so badly want this whole awakening thing to be increasing because, as we all know, awake people are better people! (*sarcasm*) And better, awake people will save the world.
Really? There have been some very awake folks out there, who absolutely knew the Truth of their being, who were real turds as human beings. Awake is great, but until Awake penetrates fully the human being we appear as, then you are just as much a danger to humanity as you were before!
Thanks, Tom.
I was talking to a friend the other night and she said, “If the current world is the result of more awakened people, I am going back to sleep!” Haha
Hi Tom
I certainly get where you’re coming from. There is indeed a lot of noise out there. These days, the special dates are everywhere. And awake certainly doesn’t mean a better person necessarily.
I agree that I could be mistaken but disagree on a few of your points. There is some data on historical trends but its somewhat scattered. For example, there are more people awake now than in Buddha’s time. India has also kept records. And there are a variety of people I respect who have corroborated my experiences in this regard. In the colloquial, I seen the train a comin’.
It’s important to recognize that this development is an inside out phenomena. Awakening is an inner thing that gradually moves out into the world. As Yogananda put it, the second coming will be within. It will take time for the trends to be unmistakable, especially with what this movement is stirring up on the surface.
It’s also worth noting that a golden age typically takes about 400 years to transition into. (see Manu and the Yog Vasishtha, for example) Given the current scenario and the speed of the last decent, I’d suggest this period will be faster but how fast, I don’t know.
I’ll also point out that a golden age is not like the current age. It’s not the current reality with people being nice to each other. It’s a completely different experience of living.
Utopian? Perhaps. But there are places now living like this and we’ve been there before ourselves. I fully understand if you don’t buy any of this. But keep an open mind. You may be surprised.
Thanks, Davidya.
Something else we might want to keep in mind…there are now more people on the planet than there were in buddha’s time, so is it more awakenings, or the same amount within a larger population?
I’m not sure we can actually know for certain…
Good point, Takuin. And the effect of global communications may give the appearance great numbers than prior decades as well.
I suppose I cannot know for certain. But there is a feeling value for want of a better word. The “thickness” of consciousness has reduced considerably since I first began meditating in the mid-70′s. People are having far deeper and more refined perceptions than before. There’s enough subjects to do research on higher states now. Some of the most advanced teachings of the 80′s and 90′s have been surpassed. Waking has become easier and includes people now who would not have likely shifted prior. In other words, it seems to need less.
Almost everyone I know who has switched has done so in the last decade.
Certainly we can say many of these people have been meditating for decades and my own experience has refined so that would have an effect on what is seen and noticed. But it certainly appears that there is a major movement afoot. Also, I’m aware of three predictions from the Vedas for this at this time, not to mention some similar ideas from other cultures. And it has a tendency to be “contagious.”
It would be a disappointment if this is just for some of us. It’s really not the sense I get but them I’m known to be an idealist.
Thanks, Davidya.
I was going to reply to your other comment directly, but I seemed to have run out of thread, haha.
I remember us talking about this before. Would you say those maps are immutable, in a way? Immutable might be too strong of a word, but do you think the path you’ve described follows the same footing in each instance, more or less? For example, if we have a fever, we can expect it to run its course in a certain way, and they almost always do with some minor variations. Is what you’ve described similar to that?
The fever will run its course, path or no path, so what do you think might have happened had you not found your map? Impossible to say, really…just curious how you think it might have turned out otherwise.
hmmm – Immutable is a little strong. I’ve come to see a pretty standard underlying process with a pretty large range of ways that the process is experienced. Understanding the process beneath the experiences makes its presence clear. For example, in a recent interview with Gangaji, (on Batgap) she describes her steps of unfolding, clearly outlining the 3 major stages. But being from the lineage see’s in, she doesn’t talk about stages and considers the concept a barrier.
Quite a few things influence how the process is experienced. Our conceptual models (even a model of no model), our practice, cultural background, and personal history come to mind. I studied a specific model early on that didn’t seem to meet my own unfoldment. I’ve since seen it actually did follow the model but too many “symptoms” had been tacked onto to it that defined how my contemporaries thought (and largely still think) it ‘should’ be experienced. In that sense, the understanding was weak and it tended to make my experience ‘wrong’. It took awhile to understand what was going on. But if I’d had no map, I would have been even more weirded. At least I had some idea of it. (I had a lot of experiences early on)
The analogy I would use is human growth and development. Enlightenment is a natural process that can be seen as a continuation of self actualization. Like puberty, there is a natural process but some develop this or that early or late, have a rough or easy time, and so forth. Same process experienced different ways. As you mention, it will run it’s course, path or no path. But its much easier to go through puberty if you know whats going on.
I know a few people that are convinced they would have woken in the 70′s had they understood what was happening and thus not struggled around it so much. I’m not so sure of that but I do know it would have been smoother at least. There’s no need to suffer to overcome suffering. (laughs)
Continuation is a good word. It eliminates the possibility of the conclusion.
This process, or whatever it is, if factual, would be something that occurs regardless of whether we see it or not. If that is the case, perhaps all of our self-induced suffering is simply a matter of blindness, or a matter of seeing (not physical seeing, but I think you know what I mean).
People too easily give up their adventurousness, their curiosity, their explorative nature, for a way of living designed by others. It is true that we should listen, and there is nothing wrong with exploring what others may hand to us, but the acceptance, the conclusion, is too easy a trap to fall into. It can become the latest security blanket, no different from anything else.
Maybe their exploration goes only so far? They dive in and explore, but only as long as it takes to find out if they should believe or move on to the next thing. Either way it is the conclusion that keeps them searching, I suppose…
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