This is from a current discussion with James taking place on the post, Quick Thoughts – Levels of Enlightenment. That post is rather old and I thought the readers would miss out on the discussion which has been interesting so far, so here it is. (Also, there were no comments on that post until James came along, so thanks James!)
We’ll keep it going in this post and hopefully get more people involved in the process. So take a moment to read the original post – which is very short – then come back and join the discussion. I’ve added the comments from that post below, in their entirety.
James:
Therefore theoretically your saying if one has 100% brain capacity / capability then he or she, It for that matter has supreme existence that is fully awakened / enlightened beyond its conception (pre or unexistent) ie. and animal does not know otherwise thereofore is complete and enlightened in its own state of understanding, If so you beleive such riddles of the mind, such tangents of a poetic philosopher, you lack the real insight to carry over the neccesary guidelines that create a “awakened being”. Such is, a 100% mental capacity has never been recorded in (known science) therefore your “liberal way of thinking” is and I know, theoretical. For one to transcend their own mind to point of disconnection with time space, is in itself enlightenment, is in itself emptyness of idealistic or realistic approaches you here are trying to explain. Such is the idea of transcending ones self, You transcend time and space. And YES transcending time and space is done in TIME AND SPACE, YES is done in levels. Thank you. (one who goes from 2.5-5% Global brain Capability, to a wopping 100%) would 1, die, hemmorage ext.. or 2 go completly insane on attempting to reach that higher level of Capability. Ie. you get the lunatics and people in asylums who are connected higher then “sane people” who cannot reach the epitimy of their self control, and self awakenment, with the capacity their conciousness has reached. Ie, levels of different parts of ones mind, and ones time space.
Takuin:
Thanks, James.
Takuin doesn’t know anything about 100% brain capacity, supreme existence, pre or un-existent this or that, nor does it have any belief about what one should or should not be. It is all far more simple than any of that.
Do guidelines lead to an awakening? Or does anything, for that matter? Not what should or should not lead one there, because that is nonsense.
Such is, a 100% mental capacity has never been recorded in (known science) therefore your “liberal way of thinking” is and I know, theoretical.
Again, I am not sure what is this 100% capacity you speak of. This is your belief, not Takuin’s. Perhaps it is this: I have said or written something, and you have translated that to mean ’100% Capacity,’ but your own idea of awakening has nothing to do with brain capacity, so you view my words as a liberal way of thinking (and I am not even sure what that means).
Such is the idea of transcending ones self, You transcend time and space. And YES transcending time and space is done in TIME AND SPACE, YES is done in levels. Thank you.
I won’t argue with you. If this is your belief, this is your belief. If you think it takes time, if you think there are levels, then that is that. I won’t try to deny you anything you believe to be true.
(one who goes from 2.5-5% Global brain Capability, to a wopping 100%) would 1, die, hemmorage ext.. or 2 go completly insane on attempting to reach that higher level of Capability.
Again, I do not know what you are referring to with these percentages of brain capacity. It is all very simple, so let’s not make it complicated.
The only level is wherever you happen to be. Anything else is your thought about what came before, or whatever you hope will come next. The only thing we can really ever be aware of is how we are functioning from moment to moment. Everything else is our story about this or that.
James:
Certainly, you have a way of putting things into perspective. This is the point i make that our awakenings happen in the point of perspective. Where we understand ourselves to be. Though where we are at any given moment may or may not be a matter of our own pure indulgence. I mean 100% brain capacity in the fact that most humans will only use a certain amount of their brain function. When enlightenment in a Liberal way of thinking, means using and being certain of using 100% of your known capability in the ways or (guidelines) that are made out to help and heal and aid in other peoples paths to their own enlightenment. In this we are all contentiously connected and continuously in a state of “situational momentary understanding” of one another and of ourselves. In this there is much indifference, much tribulation in all things that we are. We see and feel the levels of others, their feelings, their thoughts, their momentary purpose, in this we attempt to free them from such a grasp. Though as you would like to beleive, if we are in this constant state of “now” that, space and time forfeits to us, than are we not in a constant state of our own upheaval, both in the whole, and in ourselves.
Takuin:
James,
Thanks for your replies.
This is the point i make that our awakenings happen in the point of perspective. Where we understand ourselves to be.
This may be true. But we must be careful of the perspective. Is it the perspective of the person hoping to be free? Or the person that may think, “Yes, I am finally getting somewhere!” In this perspective we are seeing the separation of the person without, hoping to someday be within.
I am not saying these perspectives are wrong, or anything like that. If this is what arises, if this is what is there, then this is where we start. But the possibility of ‘perspectives’ being a trick of the person hoping to be free must also be explored. It could be nothing more than one hoping to free oneself of the self through activity of the self.
This is similar to what you mentioned above when you wrote:
And YES transcending time and space is done in TIME AND SPACE, YES is done in levels. Thank you.
One hopes to transcend the object by using that same object as a means of escape. One cannot go beyond time and space using time and space. Transcendence implies life beyond the touch of the object, whatever that object might be.
But please do not take my word for it! It is not that we say, “Well, Takuin is right! Looks like it is time to do a different thing.” That would be awful. We must question the subtleties as well as what seems to be obvious.
It is not that the activity is bad – the activity meaning the search, or the self hoping to go higher, and so on. It is just superficial. The object of the search is not important; it is the search itself one must see.
We don’t try to understand the search for enlightenment, the search for happiness, the search for love, the search for whiter teeth, or whatever it might be; we look at the process that allows the search to happen in the first place.
So for example, in the quest for love, we look at the quest-er questing for love, and not at what we believe love to be. But this seems to be difficult for many to do.
This search is viewed from the perspective of the person looking for it. And that perspective includes the beliefs, the prejudices, and whatever else the self brings to the table. But what one carries with them is insignificant to this end.
Though where we are at any given moment may or may not be a matter of our own pure indulgence.
It may very well be. And if that is what is there, that is where we begin. We can only investigate what we have, and not what we hope to have or what we believe we should have.
Someone once asked me, “Well what if what we have is the hope to be something else?” If that is what you have, that is where you begin. But you’ll never see through it if the person ‘seeing’ it is the person still hoping to have something else.
I mean 100% brain capacity in the fact that most humans will only use a certain amount of their brain function. When enlightenment in a Liberal way of thinking, means using and being certain of using 100% of your known capability in the ways or (guidelines) that are made out to help and heal and aid in other peoples paths to their own enlightenment.
How much of our brain is ‘used’ is not important for this. One cannot be certain of how much of our brains are used at any given time. Others will try to figure this out, and they will most likely tell us, but in what way is it significant?
Our brains operate the way they operate at any given time. It may seem insufficient at times or more than efficient at other times, but only through comparison to some other time or to some other brain. This just gets in the way.
It is not the brain that gets in the way of one’s freedom. It very well may be the path one has chosen for themselves.
Though as you would like to beleive, if we are in this constant state of “now” that, space and time forfeits to us, than are we not in a constant state of our own upheaval, both in the whole, and in ourselves.
You have pointed out something important; the difficulty of the searcher. They hope for a constant state, or something that will bring greater and greater pleasure over time. But this implies ‘enlightenment’ is something unchanging, something solid that can be held onto in place of pain. A conclusion, or a finished product, if I can use that phrase.
Perhaps this is what makes it enticing for so many; if it is solid and you can plan for it, then you can force your way into it.
But let’s not complicate the matter; the reality of the thing is more simple than all of that.
Thanks again, James, for your participation and interesting commentary so far. Please feel free to add more below in the comments. All others are welcome, as well.
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Takuin
The path we tread is not necessarily the path we see in front of us. We can believe it to be some sort of fate, or higher path that may or not be the true way for us to tread. The object being the path and I being the person treading such path. It is both the implication of the object and what is beyond the object, that makes transcending a possibility. Unlike an animal or inanimate object, which both are living energies, like true love all things have their specific energy, force and flow. It is with us being able to merge and be with such objects that enables us to grow and learn and become more spiritual and awakened to new things.
To your thought on “Well what if what we have is the hope to be something else?”. Searching, is it understanding or is it process? Well this is a simple question in itself. They are both the same. Without an understanding of what we are searching for, we would never come to the conclusion to consider the right road, or process.
Though, the question is really, and most fundamentally, are our paths pre destined or pre concieved? Fate is inexorable. In my opinion we are all caught in a web looking for a way to either escape the web, or manipulate our web to our own benefit. This is the idea that we are either made or we make ourselves. Whether we want to be who we are, or be something we are not. It is the comfort-abilities with ourselves that derive much love compassion and joy, the building blocks for sharing, peace and life.
Thank you.
Hi James
Transcending is not the goal. It is just an aspect of the process. And transcending the concepts is one of the key things. The vehicle does not take you to the goal, just a little closer.
Rocks and deer are not confused about their innate global and transcendent reality. Humans are the ones who choose to feel separate.
Be careful of absolute statements. Never? Takuin did not search. It is useful to inform our journey with understanding that will help us allow the goal. But even that movement must end if we are to be. Right also implies wrong but the truth is not dualistic. It is beyond right and wrong.
Fate? Who is it that chooses a path? And in that choice creates a destiny. Free will and determinism are 2 sides of one thing, just 2 ways of seeing. They are not contradictory at all. Oneness is fully inclusive of all things, all sides.
The illusion to let go of is that there is a me. A me that is on a path, being right or wrong, searching, fated and so forth. All these things may be happening but they are not personal. They have nothing to do with James. Only the idea of James thinks otherwise. This is why finding the right answer is meaningless. It is always the wrong answer. (laughs)
Thanks James for your replies so far.
I think I understand what you are saying here. The main difficulty may be the implication of what is beyond. What is beyond cannot be known in the regular sense of that word.
If I read you correctly, you are saying one needs the path and also the knowledge of what one is searching for. Or in other words, one needs the search, along with the understanding of the thing being sought. Is that what you mean?
If that is what you mean, I can see little use in that. It puts the thing sought into a fixed position. Or we might say, we search for whatever we believe to be there. It is not fluid or alive.
The seeker puts these things into fixed positions because it feels itself as a permanent thing in a fixed position. If the seeker is fixed then it may have some hope of dealing with whatever it feels is fixed elsewhere, forcing its way into whatever state suits its sense of self.
But I wonder…where is the seeker doing all of this work?
The search is also built from the ideals we select as desirable. We read or hear an ‘enlightened’ one speak, but all we can do is verbally or mentally crystallize the state he or she speaks of. Then, we begin our search for the thing we have imagined it to be, which is not the thing at all.
But I may have misunderstood your comments completely. It is not my place to say one is right or wrong with any of this anyway. It is not good or bad, better or worse. But anything that moves us away from what we are, in hopes of something better, is highly suspicious. (I am not speaking of physical improvements we may see from day to day.)
You’ve raised something very important. Who is doing all of this escaping or manipulating? You’ve described very clearly the problems of this shuffling self; the person never satisfied, always wanting more or less through escape or manipulation.
It is something so very difficult for the seeker because it is easy for him to think he’ll be able to out-seek his difficulties if only he can learn how to do it right. There is a lot of money to be made as a teacher in that field.
You’ve raised many great points James, and I’m glad you took the time to post your thoughts here. Remember, I am not saying you are right or wrong in this. It is just an exploration of the words we have in front of us.
Takuin
I agree, this has nothing to do with % use of brain. I have seen studies where brain function spread out and the hemispheres became synchronized in a transcended or samadhi state. But this is not living life.
Awakening is about being, not mind. Consciousness itself does not have states. It is simply aware. Concepts add filters to that awareness, including the sense of a me.
Many people step out of their limitations in distinct steps or stages. Thus consciousness can seem to have levels or states. But really, it is more the state of the person in reflecting consciousness rather than a state of consciousness itself. It can me useful to make models of these typcial stages so we can relate to the process and common ways of getting unstuck. But if we then mistake the stages for concrete steps, we turn the process into another illusion.
The larger ‘goal’, if we can use that word, is to live awakening, not understand it.
Davidya,
I have always found those studies to be interesting, although it is of no real use for this. But I do enjoy those programs that take a scientific look into these things. Akiko and I both.
The brain can be such a mysterious device.
Yes. One can really only see these things as steps in hindsight, through the memory of the event. But that is really for someone else to manage…I suppose there will always be someone somewhere writing it down to solidify it into a system.
Have a good retreat!
Wow! So much to talk about here. I have just started, after all these years, to ask why this path, this search. Is there discontent with myself, the way things are, or a healthy desire to just experience Reality? Is it merely an acculturation to “better” ourselves; is it all these things?
Every body will have a different answer, I suspect. For my self, I just want to be genuine. I have had enough experience with Stillness, and insights through sitting, to realize that I am not my history. Yet it still runs my life to a great degree. Lotta momentum there! (laughs) I want my behavior and perception to no longer be filtered through the story. Of course all this begs to know why I believe this particular existential conceptualization of reality in the first place. That’s for another thousand words somewhere else.
I’ll keep asking the question, though I fear it may only be another delaying tactic of the mind/ego.
As for the brain, I am of the opinion that its only function in awakening is to get the hell out of the way. “Stand aside boy, you’re impeding progress!” One cannot transcend an illusion with the illusion. Thoughts cannot take you beyond thoughts.
Great questions. Too bad there are no answers. But I guess that’s the allure, right?
Eric,
It is for you to find out, of course!
There you go. That is your work, right there. Unravel the mysteries hidden in that one statement and you may end up blinding yourself to this phenomenal world.
But don’t trust Takuin! Go, go, go…
Hi Eric
You see it clearly and that is the most important step.
Don’t worry about the brain and mind. They will be there as long as you are here. We need some story to continue our role in the play. The trick is nt being caught by the story.
There are answers, but they are not on the level of the question. They are in the stillness.
This is an interesting discussion and the part that seems to be very obvious is that mankind has complicated the whole enlightenment issue. Usually those who have not awakened make it seem like some complex formula which only the select few can solve. It truly is not complex…it is the mind that makes it seem difficult for the mind (a.k.a the ego) does not want to lose its power.
Life, truth, love, enlightenment and so on are truly very simple to achieve. It is like the line “I want peace”. Remove the “I” and remove the “want” and you have peace. The state of being enligtened is already within us all, we just have covered up it with so called human issues and problems.
Nadia,
I suppose it has just become another form of fun or entertainment. The searches and the quests have become another thing to do.
It is all so simple, and we say this over and over. But the curse of the search is such that the first thing the seeker does is tries to find a way to make it simple. “Yes, that sounds right. It is simple. Now I am going to find a way to make it simple, or else!”
So… there was a pull to this thread over here, and the question of whether the brain has anything to do with enlightenment. Would the question of brain bring about the seeker in the first place? Why does the seeker have to be involved in order for there to be liberation?
From what was read I think I see that 100% brain capacity is indeed not useful to this.
I’m still dazzled to see that I’m not the body to begin with, so to see this then what use is the brain to be attached to it so dearly. I’ve not a clue what I am but I am here now.
Thanks, liberatedself.
And that is all we can ever really sit with.
Very nice…
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