Question for May 10th, 2010 from Anjali:
Is there a linear progression towards enlightenment? Can a person who seems most unlikely to get enlightened or uncover peace actually get enlightened or uncover peace one fine day, in spite of himself or herself?
I’d like to answer this in an audio post…sometimes a question does things to the mind that the fingers cannot handle well. 
I really do enjoy these audio posts. And although I have not done many, I will do more in the future. If you have any suggestions on how to make them better, or any input at all, please do not hesitate to speak up. I am always happy to hear your suggestions and constructive criticisms.
(Note: For those reading this post through RSS or Email subscriptions, if you cannot see the audio player below, please click through to the post itself to listen.)
Listen below…
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (4.5MB)
{ 26 comments }
Ah Takuin, I always enjoy what you have to say. And in this case, it’s nice to hear from you
What I’ve found is that it’s not the person who awakens. So this goal of “becoming enlightened” will always fail. Yet it’s still a worthwhile intention. What occurs is that the Self, that inner wakefulness, wakes up to itself. That Self may arrange for the person to have some practices or some experiences to prepare the way. Or the person may do some things themselves. Which is it going on? If you grok that it’s all Self, then there is no real difference in who appears to be doing. You just go with it. Then one day, it happens. Why did it happen? We could point to this or that, but again because it’s not the field of doing that awakens (just yet), there is no direct relationship.
I would say there is a process but it’s not really linear. Mind likes linear models but growth is more a spiral than a line. We might use puberty as an example. We can point to norms and a typcial process, but each person will experience it a little differently with a little different timing. There is a series of shifts, each followed by a time of adaptation. And some of us never grow up. (laughs)
Thank you, Davidya.
Damn…I could have just said that and been done with it. I am always looking for less.
Intention is good, but I wonder, where does it come from? If from the self, it may be untrustworthy. Or at least suspect. The self must always know from whence it came, so to speak, and self-honesty is not always a common trait for the personality.
I guess we could say the self-intention is linear, because there is always the thought of where one is going and why. There is also the expectation of outcomes, and the projected, ‘better life’ that awaits at the end. Linear also means in succession, as opposed to simultaneous, and the self is a series, of sorts; a succession of events, remembered by degree of importance, that appear to make the person real and whole.
But I think you might be referring to a different kind of intention, no? One that is not necessarily self-driven or desire-driven? What did you mean when you used that word?
It is curious. I used to debate what was arising from self and what from Self until I realized the idea there there was 2 things was the only thing keeping the self alive. Thus it is all clearly just Self. The small self only exists as a concept and we thus credit things to it that are not of it. This may not be true for everyone but I don’t know that changes what seems to be happening.
It seems that the untrustworthy nature of apparent self is that its miscrediting the source of the impulse. When we thing “I did this”, we will find the results don’t align as it wasn’t the actual source of the impulse. Self-honesty is the issue, as you mention. The linear aspect is the way it is being perceived, not the actual nature of what is occurring.
Yes, to me intention is the impulse to express. The self may take credit for it, so it seems to be “self-driven” or it may simply arise due to the nature of action, one thing driving the next. It may arise as a consequence of being – for us to continue to be, this intention must be sustained. And it may arise from a sense of something “new” to occur, as in now lets have a party.
If we take it that everything is consciousness or that which is conscious, then everything we experience, think about, sense, or desire is intended. So yeah, not much to do with anything a me might seem to think about. (laughs)
Davidya,
Haha, yes, a kind of spiritual minutiae. There is only one thing standing in the way, not two (If I can put it in that way).
The impulse, as you mentioned above, is always there, and trouble usually follows the interpretations of those impulses. Maybe trouble is too strong a word. It may be a lack of ‘hearing’ or the inability to listen. Not in the physical sense, but I think you know what I mean.
Those impulses are there, but they are not terribly insistent. What I mean is, the tiniest sliver of self can ignore those impulses in order to, in its own mind, further its continuity. That furtherance may not be necessary at all, but the believer can build these ideas up to such heights that is becomes easy to cover over the most lovely of impulses.
Is it reduction that is necessary? Is that close to the right word? Nullification? For one can never use brute force to listen to the delicate messages on the impulse. One cannot hold down the self, suppress it, or try to castrate it in order to hear beyond, as these are the techniques of that very same self.
Hearing – or listening – is like a flower opening up for the first time. Curled up into itself, it slowly opens up with no effort, reaches out for nothing, yet touches everything.
Just a thought…
I suppose if we talk about linearity as time, then physically, it is something we cannot really escape from (Time meaning, distance, measurement, and so on). Our physical bodies move through this stuff, going from place to place, doing this or that.
If we imagine a horizontal line (or lines), stretching outward in all directions, with the physical body at the center, this could represent time and thought as it is projected by the person. There is no real movement there, even if the physical body moves about, as time and thought really does not change.
Now if we can imagine a vertical line, piercing through the top of the head to the tip of the toes, this could represent the Now, the Present, or whatever one might call it. This line moves with us, and in fact, we are that line. The interesting thing is, there is no real movement there, either. That line is constantly being born and destroyed, and it has no longevity at all in the sense of a projected future or past. It is as it is in every moment. It goes nowhere, but it is everything.
Here’s a useless Takuin fact for you: As a child, I learned the difference between horizontal and vertical by listening to the Bob Seger song, Horizontal Bop. Of course, that is not all I learned from that song.
hmmm – the way I model it is that the lines going out in every direction are space. The incremental (linear) experience of changes in space is time. We experience events incrementally due to the way we are experiencing. In other words, it’s entirely perceptual.
More deeply, the principle of space arises when Self recognizes Itself and thus perceives a “distance”. (an infinity within an infinity) The process of experiencing Itself leads to the principle of time. Time and space are enlivened by the mode of perception. The way we experience the world. When people experience subtler values (internally usually at first) , one can have experiences of timelessness and unboundedness, essentially pre-space-time.
Put another way, space-time is contained within perception and thus within consciousness. Even if people don’t recognize this perceptually, they’ve probably had the direct experience. We’ve all been beyond the universe, beyond space-time, cause we are the container.
Yes, there is a right here, right now. Everything happens within that. Because we usually perceive the expression of intention incrementally, change seems to occur in linear steps and we perceive unique spaces and times. Essentially its like we have our head in a bag, totally focused on whats happening inside the bag. If we can relax that focus, we can see the bag then that we’re holding the bag. (laughs)
The vertical line coming in the top of the head and running down the spine is called the silver thread or sutra. Thats the embodied intention that leads to our form. But that’s probably not what you were referring to. (laughs) But yes we are the line. There’s an intersection in the middle, in the space of the heart. That’s what some call the soul. That thread also ‘latches’ us to what are commonly called the chakras, the energy sources that support our expression. But yeah, I’m getting way off what you were talking about
hmm -what comes to mind for me is “up, down, and shake it all around”. A practice that made you dizzy and lead to falling down. Vertical to horizontal(laughs)
Davidya,
Yes, that is it. As a ‘projection’ of the person, it has no greater meaning than the projections of someone else. And as it is up to perception, I suppose we could say in some sense the horizontal line is ‘optional’, and even non-existent. But that is getting a bit away from the discussion, haha.
So the horizontal, in this example, is dependent upon the thoughts and whatnot of the person at the center. The one driving the train, so to speak. Since its projection is dependent upon the person, maybe we should call it self-time and not space time.
Is there a horizontal not dependent upon the person?
(laughs) No, no horizontal without a center or person. But what that value of “person” is can shift quite a bit. Everything from a small me to a cosmic being…
So, it’s all about destiny? No amount of wanting, pleading is attached to what one wants? Is there noone listening? Please tell me it happens to those who want it!
Thank you, Anjali.
We can forget about destiny. As it stands at this moment, Takuin’s destiny is to sit in a chair and type a reply to Anjali. His entire life has built up to this point, so please let’s not disappoint him!
Certainly it does. And also, certainly it doesn’t.
Hi Anjali
Perhaps it would be useful to remember that the illusion or error is that there is a separate person here doing something. That leads to ideas of destiny and determinism. But if we see that we are not this little me but rather the container of everything, the destiny is none other than our own intention. It only seems to be coming from a me.
Put another way, without intention, nothing happens. The question is only in who is actually intending. The real question is Who Am I? Funnily enough, the answer is the inverse question, Who am I Not?
I referred to the word destiny as it appears in Takuin’s audio post.
As of now, there is a separate person. If I imagine that I am a container of everything, that would still be imagination.
Sometimes I find words great, but often i don’t understand them. It’s rare when I do intuitively grasp, when i do meet reality… Very very rare.
I have come to a place where there is more cynicism, frustration, laziness, noise, and more insistence, more demand, more seeking. I feel more and more helpless. I guess seeking will continue till it continues. No matter how much i long for freedom, it will continue till it ends.
Hi Angali
The words may frustrate and annoy. But they also enliven the memory of who you are deep within. Otherwise you would not be here on this page. Sometimes, the intuition gets it. But those moments are hard to remember because they make little impression on the mind. They seem so rare then. But slowly the veil lifts until one day we see.
Then we wonder how it happened and laugh.
Oh – sorry, thats Anjali
Spelling is not one of my strong skills.
Is there a linear progression towards enlightenment? Can a person who seems most unlikely to get enlightened or uncover peace actually get enlightened or uncover peace one fine day, in spite of himself or herself?(from Anjali)
hehehehe…..then you,Anjali wrote..”So, it’s all about destiny? No amount of wanting, pleading is attached to what one wants? Is there noone listening? Please tell me it happens to those who want it!”
Lovely…Anjali,there is only ONE ingredient on this soup …is the desire.
The pure desire,that’s it,to find the truth.
Now..listen carefully to me,I speak wisdom now..listen to my mahayogi words and use your intuition about….this DESIRE is in all people..it’s a backup software ..but is a destiny(karma) to have it so strong that
you’ll actually feel it(this desire to know the truth) so you actually practice meditation,and do it.
Why is this need for you to do something you might ask?..because the pain if you don’t,that’s why…it WON”T transform you unless you want it..but surely it will give you so much pain in your life,that you’ll decide to follow this pure desire..now this is karma.
But you still have a choice NOT to follow the pure desire in you.
Then you’ll suffer more..this stuff never ends..because you’ll not be transformed unless YOU want it..it won’t come no Jesus from the sky,or Buddha…but ..if you follow your true desire,stuff happens by the power of your true self,so you’ll find inspired to post here,etc…
Remember that what YOU love,always loves you back…really.
I repeat..what you LOVE..always loves you back…but the greatest love is the love of the truth…and the truth loves you back,and creates the means for you to become it..
You do not FIND any truth..but you become it..see what I mean?
I repeat this again..
You do not FIND any truth..but you become it..see what I mean?
I’m sure you have no idea of what I mean..but I love you anyway…kisses Anjali…be well,and follow your true desire within…and please meditate:)
danny
ps..but I am sure Takuin knows what I’m talking about…don’t you,my friend?..if you do,please tell me:)
pps..how you guys post your avatar pics on right side of posts?….would be nice to know….thank you in advance.
@MahaDan
“pps..how you guys post your avatar pics on right side of posts?….would be nice to know….thank you in advance.”
See Gravatar.com or similar. Free service.
Best with pre-prepared 66px sq image.
(from Davidya) @MahaDan
“pps..how you guys post your avatar pics on right side of posts?….would be nice to know….thank you in advance.”
See Gravatar.com or similar. Free service.
Best with pre-prepared 66px sq image
….
Very funny Davidya..my name is Danny,for your information..please (or I’ll start calling you names too,my dear?)
ps..and you haven’t answered how you post the avatar,since there is no box on the reply to post the pic..And refrain from name calling,if this is possible for you?..if not,then everything is possible,indeed…kisses:)
@ Danny
Not to worry – I’ve been called many things
If you went to Gravatar.com you’d see. It stands for Globally Recognized Avatar. It uses your email address to call up your Avatar file when you comment, post on a blog, etc. Lots of stuff in blogs interlinks like this.
@Davidya don’t worry about it..I have no intention to go there to gravatar.com to see..keep your gravatars and shove them in your $$$ as far as I care..be well…I care as much about your gravatars as you care about my replies.
I really enjoyed your discussion here. Lately, I feel like I just opened my eyes and now there is a big sister facing the me that’s been all tangled up with intentions, desires, plans and experiences. The big sister was always there but I escaped her when I wanted to go off and do my own thing, make my own mistakes, learn my lessons, live my life (the way I know and want to – hahaha)!! Coming back into the arms of my big sister, though, I experience peace. And expansion. My mind opens up. My eyes open. I awaken to so many possibilities, different perceptions. Energy moves around and beyond my body. This is the awakening I am experiencing now. Not sure who woke up first?! This is nothing new to the big sister but for the small one it’s a whole new world. Where I go from here doesn’t matter now. Or does it??
“But if we see that we are not this little me but rather the container of everything, the destiny is none other than our own intention. It only seems to be coming from a me.”
Thank you, Masi.
It probably only matters to one that might hope to analyze what has happened. But you go ahead on and live your life…
…let them worry about the minutiae.
So many words. words. words. Maybe my new mantra. I see me in a cage it is always there, it enlarges sometimes. But in this cage you experince ( our touch it in a way) yourself, itself whatever and this whole universe is open and wide so the outside cage has no meaning anymore, it will always be there, but it has no meaning. Because you are touched by something including all and moves you on and on and on. So far my words. words words.
Many words. The question is – are they pointers or are they a cage.
It is not the words that ensnare, just as it is not the emotions or the thoughts or the body that are traps.
The snaring is in how we are with them. Our relationship.
Do we play? Or do we stand against what is here?
Like iamasimpelman – i had become jaded from years of searching though so many (wise :-/) words. Takuin: “Beyond the Known” is for me, at this moment, an experience where opening a page is akin to opening a portal to deepest space. The words you chose drop me down to where everything can be within nothing. (sorry – i cant find the right words). It’s funny, because i’m watching my thoughts wanting me to become addicted to the writing instead of moving through it!.
Thank you once again, vicki
Thank you, Vicki, once again for your kind words.
Be careful of that addiction, though…keep watching.
Thank you, Danny.
Davidya did answer your question…
I cannot speak for Davidya, but I use Gravatar to do that very thing. It is not something you have to prepare each time you post a comment, and you never have to enter any web code or anything like that. It is a free online service, as Davidya mentioned, and it requires little more than an email address and a pic ready for upload. After you do that, your picture will appear on every site supported by Gravatar, like this one.
This sort of nonsense is uncalled for, so let’s reel it in a bit. I am always happy to have any and everyone here, but I try to keep a somewhat ‘clean house‘ for lack of better phrasing. So we’ll keep it that way.
Let’s first strive to understand others…then we might move on from there.
{ 1 trackback }
Comments on this entry are closed.